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Thread: Strange and mild lumpy idle

  1. #61
    Senior Member Jlaa's Avatar
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    That may not be a bad idea. Unfortunately I do not know another shop to recommend in the Bay area. Maybe Jono could open up Blue Ridge West?

    I regret that I cannot add anything constructive to the diagnosis on this thread.

    However, I can mention that Junipero Serra Porsche & MBZ in Daly City is a shop that I like going to --- in case you need a backup place to go to.

    They are exclusively* a Porsche and MB shop. Although they are not MB only, they do, count among their repertoire, various 300SL Gullwings, air-cooled 911s, Pontons, etc. I've known Jimmy, the proprietor, for several years --- he's a hardcore car guy and personally runs an SLS, a Gelandewagen, a 993, and a 3.2 (I think). He mentioned to me before that he has about 20 E500Es under his care. One of them is a silver 500E with 22K miles on it. I got impatient waiting for the owner to decide to sell it, so I purchased the red one that I have now.

    BTW - thanks to this thread (Gerry) for publishing the contact information for Robert Fenton. I was also trying to contact Robert a few weeks ago but ran into the same issue --- the internet was saying that his business was closed, and his published phone number wasn't working. Now I know how to contact Robert.






    * BTW I don't think they work on 944/928/968s. I've only ever seen air and water cooled 356s/911s there. I might be wrong.
    Last edited by Jlaa; 01-04-2017 at 06:48 PM.
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  2. #62
    E500 n00b nocfn's Avatar
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Iirc, the inlet hose to the heater core can just have a universal hose to the outlet of the heater with the universal hose acting as a bypass of the heater core to be safe.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    I agree with Dave why not do a compression test /leak down and scope # 7? You can do all this in 45 mins or less.

    BTW: I might have a line on a used motor for around $1,500.00 I'll know further info tomorrow and will update.

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  5. #64
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    The tech said he would do it, but stressed to me that the compression test wouldn't tell us which cylinder was bad. In fact, his claim was that water in the pistons might give fake readings (helping slightly seal the rings to make it seem higher than it is). And they said that 2 hours would be better spent popping off the intake and then seeing something for real. He said then he could actually scope stuff much better.

  6. #65
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Quote Originally Posted by Dbreid View Post
    The tech said he would do it, but stressed to me that the compression test wouldn't tell us which cylinder was bad. In fact, his claim was that water in the pistons might give fake readings (helping slightly seal the rings to make it seem higher than it is).
    The point of the compression test is to rule out a head gasket breach to cyls 6 or 8. Or possibly identifying a valve seating problem in cyl 7 (water won't create false readings if the valves aren't sealing).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dbreid View Post
    And they said that 2 hours would be better spent popping off the intake and then seeing something for real. He said then he could actually scope stuff much better.
    How odd. The valves only open ~9mm. The spark plug hole is larger. I'm curious how they get a better view through intake valve openings. Might depend on the camera's capabilities?


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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Part of their point was "no matter what we find, it is gonna be in the head or the intake". And either way they gotta pull them. So they are gonna start by progressively pulling the intake and checking things as they go.

    After lots of thinking I just couldn't figure out a world where those heads didn't come off. Head gasket? Head crack? Corrosion? Intake gasket? All of it means we are doing the same stuff, right? Might as well spend my Bay Area hourly rate on getting to it.

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  10. #67
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Not that it matters much, but my machinist was telling me that it was super common for the alumunum head surfaces on these motors to corrode. Perhaps a headgasket leak that way.

    A used sl500 motor that I had bought had been overheated and had popped a headgasket and warped a head a little. It cleaned up well. But be leery of "good" used motors.
    1993 400E on EVO2's

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  12. #68
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Yes, I've seen plenty of M117, M103 and M104 heads with some corrosion on the mating surface at the block/head gasket. Very often this can be fixed by welding.

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  14. #69
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    I don't see where the protagonist ever confirmed that he "more specifically remove the rotor bracket and inspect the back side of the insulator bowl" (quoting Dave).
    Was this ever done?
    Sorry for my skepticism, but I have been through similar running problems and caps/rotors/insulator fixed it.
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    I don't see where the protagonist ever confirmed that he "more specifically remove the rotor bracket and inspect the back side of the insulator bowl" (quoting Dave).
    Was this ever done?
    Sorry for my skepticism, but I have been through similar running problems and caps/rotors/insulator fixed it.
    I'd believe that (and it would be worth a try) if the following things weren't true:

    1.) When you pressurize the coolant tank (or drive it, for that matter), the coolant level drops noticeably and none leaks on to the floor.
    2.) When you start the car after that (or after letting it sit after driving it, etc), you get a nice fat cloud of white, sweet smelling coolant smoke.

    So those things don't leave a ton of question as to the fact that coolant is getting in to the combustion chambers. Which means either intake or head(s).

    So I figured it was time to get after it.

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  18. #71
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Update. I was summoned to the shop (I am glad they are including me and walking me through what they are doing), and we noticed three things once the intake was off:

    1.) The only real spot for the coolant to leak in to the exhaust (through the head) would be near the EGR port. That doesn't look like it is happening (can't really tell from the gasket, but the EGR port isn't "cleaned" from coolant running through it) but it is hard to tell.
    2.) The upper left (when looking at the engine) water pump bolt was a little loose, and perhaps as a result, there was a small coolant leak into the intake "valley" (and I mean SMALL... as in it had never leaked enough to even have coolant in 20% of it). We tightened that, and are gonna leave it. Seems fine, and was unrelated.
    3.) You can't tell much about which is the offending piston. We scoped them all (from the spark plug hole and the intake, and rotated the engine to see them all in different light). 6 and 7 "might" be a little cleaner (from coolant), but it is hard to see well.

    Next step is to pull the exhaust manifolds and carefully inspect each for any discoloration you might find from that being the cylinder which was pumping out the coolant.

    I'll post a few pictures in a sec.

  19. #72
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    General picture of current state:



    Picture of me pointing at the EGR port I was talking about:



    Picture of the coolant "seep" at the sandwich point between the water pump and the front cover plate:



    Closer picture of valley:

    Attached Images Attached Images

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  21. #73
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    OOOH, that does'nt look too good, "pulling the headers" ?¨That won't be too easy, why not pull the heads when youre
    at it and Clean up the ports etc. See that oily partly burnt, in the crank/regenerated gas, pockets, a look inside the
    valve covers and the PCV system w its internal gaskets, a ceartain seepage is evident.

    Could be said as a precaution, change that gasket at the water pipe rearmost of right cylinderblock at #4 cyl.

    Give us a pic. of the inside of the plenum...
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  22. #74
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Update. Valve covers pulled and exhaust pulled. No obvious problem cylinder but looks like some coolant got in to the oil. Very faint suuuuuuuper light milkshake. But now we are thinking headgasket. That would be much better than cracked heads. Of course they are still headed to the machine shop. But sounds hopeful.

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  24. #75
    Senior Member Jlaa's Avatar
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Hi! I was just wondering how this (unfortunate) story has progressed? Hopefully everything has been smoother sailing / downhill? I would certainly love to hear about the progress if you are willing to share.

    Thanks,
    jlaa
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  25. #76
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Still in progress. Heads are back from machining (no cracks) and everything is being reassembled.

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  27. #77
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    I'd be looking for a second opinion...
    Same here!!
    You also might want to consider looking into Evans waterless coolant. First off I know Evans from running Round port Pontiac engines back in the late 70's and into the mid 80's ( Ever watch Street outlaws? Jim Butler who built that Pontiac motor in the Crow bought me out in 1986). They developed a line of Water Pumps for Pontiac engines back in the late 70's that solved a number of cooling related issues for us.
    The coolant has almost NO pressure in the system and has been being used in Motocross for years. Some of the big white block 6 Vovo engines have seen an issue with porous blocks and seepage through the block under the exhaust manifold I looked into the water-less coolant when i considered building a 700+ HP turbo 6 for my V-90 wagon. Looking into using it in the E-420 on the next coolant change instead of Z06. Never needs to be changed will not cause corrosion and boils at a MUCH higher temp than any water based coolant. You can take your cap off and run the stuff with a boiling point of 360 F with no issue other than evaporation over time.
    Youtube review using it in an old Jag E type.


    .
    Last edited by Ascension; 03-13-2017 at 10:04 PM.
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  28. #78
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    6000 + ft climb using Evans from India. Has anybody used this product in a M 119 powered car?
    "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." Frederick Douglass

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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Update. I should have the car back early next week. We removed the cylinder heads and had them redone at the machine shop. Apparently there were no cracks, so that's good! Took a while because a bunch of the little peripheral plastic parts around the engine had to be ordered and took a while. But hopefully I'll get her back all fresh shortly. Then I will post a better update.

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  31. #80
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Update! I have the car back! Complete redo on the heads (all the valves, seals, everything) and all the little stuff done while we were in there. New motor mounts, power steering hoses etc. Car runs fantastically. Super smooth, pulls hard (hard to remember exactly as it has been 3 months) but it sure isn't down on power. Checkbook is quite a bit lighter, but I was very pleased with the work and care the shop took. And I am damned glad to have it back! I am gonna put a couple tanks of gas through it and then we will drain the oil again (it has already been done twice) and make sure everything is good.

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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

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  35. #82
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Glad she's back up & running strong, Dan! Any word on the root cause of the initial problem?


  36. #83
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    There was no crack in the heads so the theory is that it was just a corroded head gasket at a particular spot which was allowing water into cylinders. I sorta wished there was more of a smoking gun. But I am glad to have it back regardless

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  38. #84
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    That's what I was suspecting as well... basically the head gasket was starting to fail in one small area, enough to cause the coolant loss. I too was hoping the shop would have found the smoking gun...


  39. #85
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Nice to have it back for sure. I was driving around a w220 s500 for a month or so and there's just no comparison.

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  41. #86
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    Re: Strange and mild lumpy idle

    Longer term follow up. I put some miles on the car and in general, it is great. About a week or so ago, I noticed a tapping, and honestly thought it was an exhaust leak. I was due for another oil change anyway, so I dropped it at the shop and they took a look. The tapping is the front drivers side lifters (they pulled the cover to confirm). They said it is definitely getting oil, and isn't dry. We didn't replace the lifters (I have no idea why... I never thought to ask honestly) and they said all the oil tubes are fine etc. I replaced all of them with new metal ones when we did the head.

    I put back In Redline10-40 (what I generally run) and have only had it back for a little bit. It seems a little quieter,but not perfect.

    I'll run it a bit more but will likely experiment with oil to see if I can quiet it down. I have had good luck with some of the Lucas additives in some of my rock crawler (low speed high torque lots of engine stress) stuff. I might give that a shot as well?

    Thoughts on noisy lifter?

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