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Thread: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

  1. #1
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    500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Just a heads up to everyone here. Should you require rear brake pads for your 500E there are 2x EPC errors.
    Refer to screenshot below-

    EPC.JPG


    The first error is listing PN A0054201720 as the rear brake pads.... with Qty listed as 001. This has even fooled my local MB dealer on 2 occasions when I asked them to order me rear brake pads & I turned up to find ‘stock’ smaller solid rotor w124 pads instead.


    The middle part number of A0024200520 is CORRECT for the 500E. This was the original part number. This is a 61.8 x 69.7 x 15.4mm Pad. But this Pad is NLA from MB now which leads me to the second EPC error-


    The last ‘Replaced by’ part number of A0034204820 is the latest part number substituted by Mercedes and is what you will get from a MB dealer (assuming they don’t hand you A0054201720 first) This A0034204820 pad’s dimensions are largely the same but will vary in thickness. Some pads are 16.9mm thick from certain suppliers for this part number. I got a set of A0034204820 and they do not actually fit into the rear calliper of the 500E with new rotors. And yes the pistons were 100% wound back in – still no go. AND – the sliding pin slots are also wrong for this later pad. They will NOT fit a 500E without filing out the slots by a few mm to allow the calliper pin to slide through.


    So if anyone is ordering rear brake pads only order 0024200520 PN pads from your favourite aftermarket brand.


    As a result of this EPC clusterf*$k I now have 3 extra sets of pads on the shelf that I can’t use. I also just ordered a set of A0024200520 Bosch pads on Ebay and very long story short they queried my selection based on Vin #. I advised I ordered the correct pads in a detailed message & to send them on. So they agreed to that.


    But then the smaller stock w124 pads turned up anyway.....despite being different pads to what I ordered as per ebay listing and what they had agreed to send by messages prior to dispatch. And now they are using EPC to ‘prove’ I am wrong & my 500E has solid rear rotor pads. So now I will have to pay return shipping because of their insistence to change my order to follow an EPC / aftermarket parts catalogue error.....


    I have currently ordered Zimmermann 21305.155.1 from another vendor which I do hope will finally slot in terms of both thickness & Pin locations but they are still a week out before I can confrim this. I will have lots more to offer on this subject including pictures in due course.

    Has anyone else experienced such problems? Klink, Dave?
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Rouven036's Avatar
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Besides this, the dealer can report such errors to the factory.
    W123, W124, R129, W163, W201, W230

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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Thanks JC220!
    Your post is most timely as I'm doing a Silver Arrow conversion for my 1992 Euro 500E and will be in need of a set of disc pads. Question is would the pads you have fit the SA rear calipers?

    All the best,


    Joe
    1992 500E Euro
    1993 928 GTS

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    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Pics from Google for the early / smaller pads, used on all USA/Japan-spec E500E, and early Euro 500E with 278x24 rear rotors:

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    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    And, pics of the Euro-only, late 500E / E500 rear pads for 300x22 rotors:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
    Click here for my YouTube channel

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  9. #6
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Pics from Google for the early / smaller pads, used on all USA/Japan-spec E500E, and early Euro 500E with 278x24 rear rotors:
    Dave thanks for the information.

    However, this appears to agree with EPC. IE; that my Euro 1992 500E should have the smaller early type pads since it has 278 x 24mm Rotors. Which is what I removed from the rear of the car before. See pic below for comparison between smaller pad as removed vs what I feel is the correct pad.

    IMG_3132.JPG

    These are also 2x pictures showing the larger rear brakes pads installed in my E36 & 500E currently. Note these are still bedding in as both cars have covered almost zero miles since install. Also note how the pads do ‘wipe’ the whole of the rotor.

    IMG_3548.JPGIMG_3549.JPG

    If the smaller pad is installed here then there is around 1cm of the disc machined surface which will not get used / wiped by the pad. Not only does this perform worse but it looks wrong + the discs can corrode badly to this unswept area- pic below is how my 500E rear discs looked like after the PO had ran the smaller pads for a number of years;

    IMG_3072.JPG

    And this is the Textar 034 discs, Original calipers painted and the larger pads installed; (Last part number which I had to file down to fit in order to get the car to the bodyshop. Hence I now want to dispose of those & fit pads that will slide into the caliper!)

    IMG_3276.JPG


    Also note the rear brake disc information as discussed on 500E Board here in post #616 onwards. The E500E brake disc part number 129-423-02-12 is also superseded to a 034 disc part number 124-423-08-12. The difference between these discs is the hub thickness 5mm for 034 VS 7mm for 036 discs. So I have fitted new OE Textar rear discs to both my 500E & E36 –
    Information I found - Current No.: 124423081264 Prior No.: 1244230812, 1294230212, 129423021264
    So I have ordered a pair of 124423081264 Rear Discs.

    Bore Ø [mm]: 15

    Brake Disc Thickness [mm]: 24,0
    Brake Disc Type: Vented
    Centering Diameter [mm]: 67
    Diameter [mm]: 278
    Height [mm]: 55,5
    Inner Diameter [mm]: 164
    Minimum Thickness [mm]: 21,4
    Number of Holes: 5
    Pitch Circle Ø [mm]: 112

    So what to do? Is EPC indeed correct in this case? Is anyone else seeing what I am seeing or have I gone mad Could the smaller pad be correct? -Albeit that the larger pad will do a better job & appears to fit the disc properly? This is a very strange setup indeed.............
    Last edited by JC220; 04-11-2017 at 01:05 AM.
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

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  11. #7
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    WAIT-

    I think I messed up. On looking at this again I think the 034 rear discs have created an optical illusion.

    See how the original 500E discs have a groove machined in them below the brake pad running surface? And the 034 / Textar new discs do not have this groove, but rather a larger machined face which just happens to fit the larger w124 brake pad like a glove.

    So it would appear the smaller pad IS correct for a 500E with 278mm Rotors. Good news is I already have 3 sets of those on the shelf ready to go Bad news is this setup is going to look wrong IMO.
    I may just run the current installed larger pads at this stage. Hell in 2K17 I could call this a ‘036 life Hack’ and make billions...
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

  12. #8
    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Joe, there are 3 different sizes of rear pads... have you confirmed which size you had? The 500E's use the medium and large for early vs late, respectively.

    Normally, the rotor machined surface should have full contact with the pad face and only about 1-2mm (max) extra above or below the pad.

    Also wouldn't hurt to double-check the calipers+rotors installed on the car, to verify they are correct for the VIN. (??)


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  14. #9
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Joe, there are 3 different sizes of rear pads... have you confirmed which size you had?
    Dave,
    From your pictures above which show all 3x pad sizes the ones I removed from my 500E (& that match the EPC PN of A0054201720) are the centre, medium size pad.

    Normally, the rotor machined surface should have full contact with the pad face and only about 1-2mm (max) extra above or below the pad.
    This is my understanding also which is why this is setup is confusing me!

    Also wouldn't hurt to double-check the calipers+rotors installed on the car, to verify they are correct for the VIN. (??)
    The brake discs I bought are the 278 x 24mm 034 items. (Since this is the latest EPC superseded part number) The rear callipers I believe to be original to the car & suitable for the 278mm discs. They are ATE callipers with ‘57P’ stamped on the outside of one & ‘58P’ on the outside of the opposite calliper.

    So in summary I removed & EPC indicates my 500E with 278 x 24mm discs should have the medium size pad.


    But I ‘think’ the larger size pad is what is actually required since this matches the machined face of the new brake discs I have.


    However, that’s not to say that the new discs (Or 034 discs since we now know this is the current 500E substituted PN) do not have the groove cut in below the original medium pad running surface which is making this setup look worse than it is.


    I hope this makes sense what I am saying. It does not help that EPC throws up 3 pad part numbers (1 Medium pad, 1 of the original larger / late 500E pad & the final 3rd part number which is the latest superceded number for the larger / late 500E pad)

    So what rear pads are you guys fitting? Has anyone else fitted new rear discs & pads lately & has photos to share?
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

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    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    I'm not sure what's going on... but, the early 500E rear brakes should only have ~2mm gap above & below the pad surface. Photo attached from one of my previous cars, I eyeballed another car through the wheel spokes and it's similar.

    If you are seeing 1cm gap with the 'medium' pads, and/or the 'large' pad covers all the machined surface, something is fishy.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
    Click here for my YouTube channel

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  17. #11
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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Yes I am seeing a 1cm gap at the bottom of the new disc edge when using the medium size pads according to EPC

    And yes- the largest pad size fits like a glove besides the pin alignment issue. It covers the entire brake disc surface perfectly. The slots for the locating pins need filed about 1.5 - 2mm wider towards the centre to allow the caliper pins to slide through. I have noted this on no less than 6x sets of the largest size latest EPC pad number. Which is why this is extra puzzling to me! I can't seem to get a set of pads to fit 500E claipers 'correctly' out of the box
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Looking at the pics again... your Textar 034 rotors appear to have machined surface all the way down to the hub. The OE rotors do not; there is a gap between the machined surface and the hub. This may be the source of the misalignment you are seeing?


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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Looking at the pics again... your Textar 034 rotors appear to have machined surface all the way down to the hub. The OE rotors do not; there is a gap between the machined surface and the hub. This may be the source of the misalignment you are seeing?

    Yes this is the conclusion I have came to myself. I think I'll run it as is now - can't hurt anything since the largest w124 pads are working in it & using the whole new Textar disc surface
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    It is unlike MB to make mismatching parts and leave it to the aftermarket with even minor assembling issues, but could this be a unforeseen (...overlooked?) blunder due to the MB parts merging philosophy?

    However, the wider contact surface should give sharper rear brakes, and let's hope the extension doesn't cause uneven wear. Or in case you want it period you could machine down that 10mm gap on the rotors.

    Arnt
    '92 500E, 6.0 AMG, König SC, Black/black
    '94 E500 Limited, Sapphire black, 288 grey
    '92 500 TE, Silver/black (sold)

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    Re: 500E rear brake pad EPC minefield

    Quote Originally Posted by 500AMM View Post
    It is unlike MB to make mismatching parts and leave it to the aftermarket with even minor assembling issues, but could this be a unforeseen (...overlooked?) blunder due to the MB parts merging philosophy?

    However, the wider contact surface should give sharper rear brakes, and let's hope the extension doesn't cause uneven wear. Or in case you want it period you could machine down that 10mm gap on the rotors.

    You guys are now thinking along the same lines as me! I have never experienced a problem like this before with MB brake fitment. Only 500E rear callipers (on both my 500E & E36)



    The main problem here I suspect is;


    • MB Superseded the original 036 brake disc part numbers to 034 items
    • EPC denotes 3x different pads types for a 500E. (But; The first Part number A0054201720 must be what they deem as correct due to Qty listed as 001)
    • The OE Larger E500 pad original part number is also superseded to a later item. As yet difference is unknown


    Simply put – ordering the correct pads from EPC (A0054201720) & the latest brake discs (034 items PN 124423081264 does not compute on fitment.

    I will re-visit this subject again soon & provide ‘real world’ pictures of why the correct pads look / are wrong & why the later larger pads are not simply drop in but require filing (to elongate the pin locating holes only).

    Interesting suggestion regarding machining the 10mm gap / groove back into the 034 discs. But remember brake discs are balanced items to it would require a specialist with brake discs balancing equipment to be able to carry out such a modification. However it is also likely the casting is different altogether & will not allow removal of that material to the degree of 036 original discs.

    Question – does anyone reading this own a 400E? Care to share pictures of the rear brake discs? Curious if original 034 brake discs look the same as these new Textar’s. A picture looking directly at the disc / caliper through the wheel would be great too like my pictures above. I shall explore EPC for 400E brake Disc/ Pad PN's now too.

    EDIT;

    Just looked up EPC for a 400E 124.034 rear brakes-

    Rear Pad:
    Original PN: A0014209520
    Replaced by: A0054201720

    Rear brake disc:
    Original PN: 1244230812
    (Not replaced by / superseded)

    Calipers:
    Left A0004208283
    Right A0004208383
    (EPC indicates 400E & 500E rear calipers are one & the same part numbers)

    So there IS something fishy here. The 400E brake discs original brake pad PN was A0014209520. Now superseded to the same latest 500E pad numbers. I now need to find out what a A0014209520 pad’s details were.
    Last edited by JC220; 04-12-2017 at 07:05 AM.
    1987 w124 200 E36 AMG Project car - ongoing
    1990 w124 300E-24 Fully Restored
    1992 w124 500E Rolling Restoration - ongoing
    1995 w202 C36 AMG The donor for the w124 E36
    2007 w211 E220CDI Avantgarde Daily Driver

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