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Thread: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

  1. #61
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    brad penn is the Best oil for these engines IMHO.
    We buy it in 55 gallon drums. The word synthetic means very little and/or nothing now as far as labeling. Dino oils are called synthetic all the time once they have been manipulated hard enough. It's retarded.

    I'm REALLY surprised your guy is using Castrol GTX...it's a much less expensive option, but IIRC it doesn't have nearly as strong an additive package when it comes to older engines... Considering that you can buy 5 qt's at the Walton's Store of Death for 18$ I'm a gonna say that the additive package it junk. I'd drop that out of your 993 Yesterday.

    With out being able to hold a camshaft in my hand and look @ it Ever so closely knowingly I would not buy used cams. Alt, call tom @ the Classic Center give him your VIN and see what he can do. Do you have the 2 digit code of the back of your cam shafts? That helps identify what all you have as well.

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  3. #62
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Any oil chosen must have a high zinc content (required for our M117 engines to avoid premature wear issues)
    I only use this oil below because of that reason which is an Australian produced oil but it is available world wide if you drill down in the drop box to see where it is available local to you
    Penrite Oil | RACING 15W-50 (PAO ESTER)

    Quote:
    Penrite Racing oil 15W-50 (PAO Ester)
    Racing 15 is a premium, 100% PAO & Ester, full synthetic SAE 15W-50, SHEAR FREE modern engine oil. It contains an anti-wear package of *FULL ZINC + (exceeding 2200+ ppm levels) for ultimate engine wear protection.
    It exceeds the requirements of API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3 as well as many other manufacturers’ specifications.

    Factory Racing
    Penrite 10 Tenths Racing products are used by Factory Race Teams to provide the ultimate in performance and protection. To visit our Factory Racing Partners and Penrite Brand Ambassadors Click Here
    Application

    Racing 15 is designed for use in modern 4, 6 & 8+ cylinder, multi cam, multi-valve including VVT, naturally aspirated, supercharged & turbocharged engines. It can be used in high performance, modern engines for both competition and normal on road use in a wide range of vehicles.

    Racing 15 is a SHEAR FREE formulation that eliminates viscosity loss during extreme engine operating conditions ensuring the ultimate in protection for your engine.

    Racing 15 is suitable for vehicles that specify the use of SAE 15W-40 or SAE 20W-40 viscosity engine oils in the owners handbook. It can also be used where the manufacturer requests API SN or where previous API specifications SM (2004-10), SL (2001-04), SJ are recommended and where ACEA A3/B3 is required. It is suitable for use in LPG and light duty diesel engines where API CF, ACEA A3/B3 is required or pre 2008 where ACEA A3/B4 is recommended.
    It is NOT suitable for use in diesels fitted with a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).

    Racing 15 has been proven in race and competition conditions in engines requiring a high performance full synthetic engine oil.
    It is the product of choice for many competitors running competition vehicles in circuit & drag racing, rallying, drifting, hill climb, targa, time trials and regularity.

    Vehicle and Fuel Types
    Racing 15 is suitable for use in competition applications and for on road use in passenger car and light commercial vehicles and can be used with Petrol, LPG, E10, E85 (Competition Only), diesel (without DPF), avgas, nitro, methanol & other conventional fuels.
    Not suitable for diesel vehicles fitted with a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).

    Racing 15 is suitable for use in four stroke motorcycles with wet clutches.

    NOTE: when changing oil, Penrite recommend using Penrite Engine Flush, a fast acting, solvent free, engine cleaning formulation that removes engine deposits, sludge and contaminants with the oil service drain.
    It contains added zinc for engine wear protection and its fast acting formulation works in 10 minutes.
    *Full Zinc + = Zinc level + Boron level combined as a total anti-wear package
    Unquote:
    1987 White Euro "ECE" 197kw 500SEC
    1988 Black Euro "RUF" 220kw 560SEC - going WB 2016
    1989 Midnight Blue Euro RUF 220kw SEL full hydro
    M117-968 220kw spare engine converted to EFI- Haltech 2000
    M119-960 5ltr /M119-980 5ltr-Haltech 2000 / 722.620 Trans - TCM 2000

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Hoff do you still have those NOS ECE cams I found for you in your stash?
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Something to keep in mind: Zinc/phosphorus (aka 'ZDDP') levels above ~1500 ppm or so can damage catalysts. Be careful with any 'race' oils which may have higher levels of ZDDP, if your car has catalytic converters.

    If your car does not have cats, this is not an issue... but for most people in USA it's a significant concern. As a very very rough guide, any oil with ZDDP levels around 1200-1500 should be plenty adequate even for the M117. Also keep in mind that ZDDP is just one portion of a total additive package; there are other concerns as well, but that's better left for another oil thread.

    Side note: The M119 engines used in the E500E have a very different camshaft/lifter design, and do not require massive amounts of ZDDP.


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Anything with ZDDP level of 1100 or greater is fine for an M117. Brad Penn is in the 1300 area which is perfect.

    Note that any M117 is going to be exempt from emissions in many states due to its age beyond 25 years old (People’s Republic of California excepted).


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Yes i run no Cats over here so that is not an issue
    Penrite do have HPR15 15W-60 (full synthetic) with ZDDP 1500 which would suit Cats
    http://penriteoil.com.au/products/br...full-synthetic
    and if your a dino man then HPR30 20W-60 (Mineral) with ZDDP 1600
    http://penriteoil.com.au/products/br...20w-60-mineral

    Penrite has been around 100years and are one brand (Like brad Penn) that is at the top of the game without all the saturation marketing hype you see with the likes of Mobil 1
    1987 White Euro "ECE" 197kw 500SEC
    1988 Black Euro "RUF" 220kw 560SEC - going WB 2016
    1989 Midnight Blue Euro RUF 220kw SEL full hydro
    M117-968 220kw spare engine converted to EFI- Haltech 2000
    M119-960 5ltr /M119-980 5ltr-Haltech 2000 / 722.620 Trans - TCM 2000

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Yes but i would not on-sell them as i run 3 cars with these high comp engines/cams and are vital to me as spares if i incur wear on any of the 3 engines
    1987 White Euro "ECE" 197kw 500SEC
    1988 Black Euro "RUF" 220kw 560SEC - going WB 2016
    1989 Midnight Blue Euro RUF 220kw SEL full hydro
    M117-968 220kw spare engine converted to EFI- Haltech 2000
    M119-960 5ltr /M119-980 5ltr-Haltech 2000 / 722.620 Trans - TCM 2000

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    09 was the numbers on the back., i have the engine number 2 if that helps

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Yes that cam came with the M117-962 & 964 & 965 500 engine (cam pair- left side 08 and right side 09)
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    1987 White Euro "ECE" 197kw 500SEC
    1988 Black Euro "RUF" 220kw 560SEC - going WB 2016
    1989 Midnight Blue Euro RUF 220kw SEL full hydro
    M117-968 220kw spare engine converted to EFI- Haltech 2000
    M119-960 5ltr /M119-980 5ltr-Haltech 2000 / 722.620 Trans - TCM 2000

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Anything with ZDDP level of 1100 or greater is fine for an M117. Brad Penn is in the 1300 area which is perfect.

    Note that any M117 is going to be exempt from emissions in many states due to its age beyond 25 years old (People’s Republic of California excepted).
    My 560SEC is still running on the original catalytic converters (now 28+ years old) and they are actually still working well. The use of Brad Penn and other oils with higher levels of ZDDP over the years I've had the car have not negatively affected the efficiency of the cats.

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    i just ordered Brad penn from amazon

    https://www.amazon.com/BPEN-20W50-12.../dp/B004WKH0VQ

    now just need to get the motor redone finding those right cams


    Hoff my engine is a 117 963 and i see its also under code 08 09

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I did some comparison of oil prices. Referring to previous post's link, 12 quarts of Penngrade 1 is 259 $ here in Finland, compared to 85,70 $ on Amazon. Of course they don't ship to Finland. The amount needed for oil change (8 litres) calculates about 190 $, which is 120 $ more than same amount of Castrol Magnatec, for example. Red Line is almost as expensive as Penngrade. I don't know what the prices are in the US.

    Well, I guess it is a small price to pay for the peace of mind and for the engine wellbeing. I would not like to ruin the newly rebuilt valve train with wrong oils either.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Check this out...im thoroughly confused now


    I went to classic center in IRvine with my original data card. My engine is 117963 12 070833 and the stamped number on the right side cam is 09, which i assume the left is 08 right.
    Well classic center,dealerships nor Germany have any 09 cams.
    7 08 cams exist.

    Bondavi mentioned parts 04, and 05 but they goto engine 117 961 which is different than my engine. im not sure what cars they were in, i assume earlier 500s maybe

    heres whats interesting, When i asked classic center to pull the cam numbers on american 500's they came up with the same 08 and 09 engine numbers

    so are euro and american cams both 08 and 09??? or are they different cams but with the same part number??

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  22. #74
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Be careful... it sounds like there could be some part number supercession going on. Meaning, MB is superceding Euro cams to USA-spec, or vice-versa (I don't know M117 cam codes). If so, they'll sell you something that will "work" but not necessarily work how you want it to.

    Methinks we'll need an M117 expert to chime in...




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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Worst case is two febi cams and new valve train for g2 vin
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    you mean from a gen 2? im not even going that way....im already confused enough

    my tech was gonna call mike from metric motors this week if we get no where else and see what options there are for regrinds...

    i really dont know what else to do.

    i did find this

    https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/1170510901/

    they have a genuine mercedes one listed, but then again i dont know if that is the right component or is even what they say it is.

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    My euro 5/85 gen 1. 231 hp has 117963 12 079436 engine and 08/09 cams. The left cam (08 I guess) was replaced with a new Kolbenschmidt cam just couple of months ago, and I checked that the right cam I also available, at least through aftermarket. I don't know the differences on cams to US models.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    vdubpower, what is your car model and year exactly? Check out atp-autoteile.de, I bought my cam there. Don't know whether they ship to USA though.
    1985 500 SEC
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by vdubpower View Post
    i did find this

    https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/1170510901/

    they have a genuine mercedes one listed, but then again i dont know if that is the right component or is even what they say it is.
    If ECS Tuning shows Genuine MB as shipping in 5 days... that means they are ordering from a dealer. And if MB has zero in stock, it's unlikely they'll be able to get it, however you'd need to call them and ask. ECS is pretty good about changing items to "NLA" or "discontinued" status on their website once they confirm, but if it's a recent supply problem they may not have updated their site yet.


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    The issue is it seems is that the USA spec cams are pulling the same part number as the euro. Both 09,08 for my car. So I don't know if what they have is actually physically a different camshaft.

    I figure if ecs has anything it maybe purchase via the dealers prior or like u said they think they can.

    My uncle in UK says he can get them for 300£ each

    I'll go that route because maybe that would guarantee me a euro can. ... Maybe .... If there really is such a difference

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    My data card
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  33. #82
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    The EPC shows the 10+11 superceding to 08+09 for your VIN.

    I'm not sure if the 08+09 cams are USA-spec...? Some USA-spec cars only show 08+09 in the EPC.

    What I don't know is the difference between the cam profile (lift, duration) between 08+09 and 10+11; assuming there is any difference. The FSM only shows 08/09.

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  34. #83
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    So yours is a Euro-model? Sorry, I am bit confused. If so, 08/09 Kolbenschmidt cams are available for about 270 € each at ATP-Autoteile. And most probaply from many other place also.

    EDIT: Actually not 270, but 229,90€ + shipping
    Last edited by Heksi; 1 Week Ago at 02:45 PM.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Lol. Your confused..

    Yes a euro. I have all the grey market documentation from when my uncle received it in MB of Piccadilly. Drove it around from Feb 85 to august. Then it was received in California in October. I have conversion papers. There is no engine work done there. Right side cam is 09. Left side not checked but assume to be 08.



    On epc if u put in a vin of a 85 non grey market car what part number would it give u.. Can u check

  36. #85
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Okay, so euro 1. Gen 500, you have the same engine as my SEC, so its A1170510901 and A1170510801.
    Last edited by Heksi; 1 Week Ago at 02:30 PM.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/192300689370

    American version with euro cosmetics

    I think

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Just want to say thanks to everyone too

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I just assumed your car is US-version as you apparently are located in America. Looking at that SEC, I didn't realise the US-VIN is so different, that's new to me.
    1985 500 SEC
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Be careful... it sounds like there could be some part number supercession going on. Meaning, MB is superceding Euro cams to USA-spec, or vice-versa (I don't know M117 cam codes). If so, they'll sell you something that will "work" but not necessarily work how you want it to.

    Methinks we'll need an M117 expert to chime in...



    Eh,er, sorry to disappoint, but I was working on these back in the US "grey market" heyday of the 1980s, and there was no problem getting whatever camshaft we needed for the particular application...
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    so klink, whats the final answer......are euro cams and usa cams the same thing, 1985 500's with m117963 had 08, 09 stamped cams??

    am i safe to buy cams stateside with out losing 50 hp??

    cheers

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by vdubpower View Post
    so klink, whats the final answer......are euro cams and usa cams the same thing, 1985 500's with m117963 had 08, 09 stamped cams??

    am i safe to buy cams stateside with out losing 50 hp??

    cheers
    The factory specs for cam timing testing are the same for the USA and the German regular compression 117.963 engines. I'd just get the 08/09 cams from Yank, and not worry. The 117 07 and 08 should be the same as what you currently have, providing you also have a "117" on that cam somewhere... Also, there was a lot more to the power difference between the German and USA version engines than just the cams, but even considering that, the current literature shows the correct replacement cams as the 117 08 and 09.
    I'd publish the chart, but I'm having trouble getting it to attach. If you have access, it is at the start of job number 05-0215 "checking and adjusting timing of camshafts" in the manual.
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    I'd publish the chart, but I'm having trouble getting it to attach. If you have access, it is at the start of job number 05-0215 "checking and adjusting timing of camshafts" in the manual.
    Do you mean this chart?
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksi View Post
    Do you mean this chart?
    Yes
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    alright then.....so i called Mike at Metric Motors who do Classic center engine rebuilds...they have no available cams nor recommend i do a regrind of what i have.....He also said that the euro and USA 09, 08 cams are the same...In regards to oil, they use castrol gtx, and now castrol edge 5/50. He didnt know much about the brad penn. He also said Febi rockers were ok, so ill grab 16 of them....MB are 4-5 times price...thats just too much..

    i found a local shop that parts hoards, they have some cams which were unmarked but said they were for 117, they looked nasty, tons of surface corrosion...maybe they were unused and just sitting there, i dont know....i passed

    So my last option is having my Uncle In UK order some from his MB guy. Hopefully MB dealers still have some.

    WHen charles at classic checked his inventory i assume it was for USA and germany only.

    In the mean time we have other bits and pieces to work on.

    Timing chain, guide, rails and tensioner have not been done for 150000 miles, for some reason they were done at 51000 miles. i dont know why then. Chain and rails look ok now but yeah ill change all, with genuine parts........damn that MB tensioner is so expensive compared to aftermarket

    We also have to do a reseal of the PS box, and while that is out refresh some of the suspension components that the PS fluid has melted away. ....Im not even sure what these are called.

    Transmission will also get a reseal and flush.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Guide rod mounts and the bushings
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    thanks ill start looking into that......must be gen MB or is Lemforder ok for this item

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    https://mercedessource.com/store/126...estoration-kit

    found this kit...not sure where he sources his parts from

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Lemforder parts, at least for now, are still OK, particularly if they are Made in Germany. If you get Lemf parts that are not made in a European country, I would not use/return them. Over the past few years, we've been seeing more and more Lemforder parts made in non-European countries -- not a good sign, and not advisable to use.

    The honest best way to go is just to go with factory MB rubber for the 126. I used Lemforder for the recent front ball joint replacement and mine were made in Germany, so they are of good quality, equivalent to factory MB. But DO NOT EVER use Febi, Meyle, or any other no-name/Chinese brand rubber or suspension parts for a 126.

    MB factory and/or Lemforder (European-made) only.

    DO NOT use the Uncle Kent Bergsma kits, as they heavily make use of Febi and Meyle rubber parts to keep the cost down. These are demonstrably inferior to factory and OEM parts, particularly rubber. Again, DO NOT USE Mercedessource suspension kits as they utilise inferior aftermarket parts.

    I've been asking GSXR for months now to talk to his Uncle Kent and insist the he stop using these inferior Chinese-made aftermarket parts, but have had little success at such.....

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