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Thread: 400E 5.0 swap

  1. #1
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    400E 5.0 swap

    Anyone in here that has done a 5.0 swap to their 400E/E420? I'm under the impression that it should be a straight forward swap with a 5.0 LH module. I'm using an M119.970 from a 500sel so the oil pump and oil pan have to be swapped, are there any problems/kinks that some of you have run into?

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Yep, you are correct... swap oil pan+pump, exhaust manifolds, and use 5.0 LH module + EZL. Straightforward but not easy. Part of the fun is the oil pan is used to mount the engine to the stand, as seen in your photo... can't swap the oil pan with it on a stand like that.

    If the donor engine was a 119.972 it would be easier as the oil pan and manifolds are the same as the W124.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Yep, you are correct... swap oil pan+pump, exhaust manifolds, and use 5.0 LH module + EZL. Straightforward but not easy. Part of the fun is the oil pan is used to mount the engine to the stand, as seen in your photo... can't swap the oil pan with it on a stand like that.

    If the donor engine was a 119.972 it would be easier as the oil pan and manifolds are the same as the W124.

    I just use a ratchet strap to pull the engine up a bit and release the tension off the lower bolts which allows me to turn the engine upside down and remove the pan.

    I only paid $400 for the engine, LH module, and 2.82 differential that came out of a 500sel. The guy said it was his daily driver but when I opened it up both upper guide rails were broken in half and the chain could be lifted off the cam gear an 1/8". So I'm going to order a timing chain kit and a reseal kit and put it back together slowly before plopping it into the 400E. What is the main different between the 4.2 and 5.0 ezl? Timing adjustment?


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    you prolly have to swap the engine mount arms/legs.. maybe manifolds.

    Shouldn't be too bad really.. We did one here a couple of years ago. would be good to change the timing guide rails while it's out. Take care of the harness/mounts/rear main, power steering hoses...all that good stuff..


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    EZL is just timing, so yes, different maps....and LH is of course fuel...

    Jono
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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    you prolly have to swap the engine mount arms/legs.. maybe manifolds.

    Shouldn't be too bad really.. We did one here a couple of years ago. would be good to change the timing guide rails while it's out. Take care of the harness/mounts/rear main, power steering hoses...all that good stuff..


    jono
    Yeah I'm doing the timing chain and guides, and doing a reseal. It's going to be a daily driver so I wanna address all the common issues.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    EZL is just timing, so yes, different maps....and LH is of course fuel...
    Yup, what Jono said. Different fuel & ignition maps. The fuel curve is more critical.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Ahh, I'll have to get an EZL then.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    ... and 2.82 differential that came out of a 500sel.
    See if you can get the EZL fro the same car, if available. The 5.0 engine will run and drive with the (early) 4.2 EZL but it would be best to get the proper 5.0 EZL.

    BTW, that 2.82 differential won't bolt in to a W124 subframe. The 140.05x uses the larger / reinforced diff which is completely different. You could swap the ring+pinion but ugh, that's a nightmare. If you want 2.82 for cheap, you need to find an early 400SE/SEL donor. Or, get a 2.65 diff from a 129.066 chassis; just make sure the donor has ASR since it appears the black 400E in your photos has ASR.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Are the differentials from early 400se/sel's the same exact part number as the 500e differentials?
    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    See if you can get the EZL fro the same car, if available. The 5.0 engine will run and drive with the (early) 4.2 EZL but it would be best to get the proper 5.0 EZL.

    BTW, that 2.82 differential won't bolt in to a W124 subframe. The 140.05x uses the larger / reinforced diff which is completely different. You could swap the ring+pinion but ugh, that's a nightmare. If you want 2.82 for cheap, you need to find an early 400SE/SEL donor. Or, get a 2.65 diff from a 129.066 chassis; just make sure the donor has ASR since it appears the black 400E in your photos has ASR.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I am surprised more people don't do this swap.

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    See if you can get the EZL fro the same car, if available. The 5.0 engine will run and drive with the (early) 4.2 EZL but it would be best to get the proper 5.0 EZL.

    BTW, that 2.82 differential won't bolt in to a W124 subframe. The 140.05x uses the larger / reinforced diff which is completely different. You could swap the ring+pinion but ugh, that's a nightmare. If you want 2.82 for cheap, you need to find an early 400SE/SEL donor. Or, get a 2.65 diff from a 129.066 chassis; just make sure the donor has ASR since it appears the black 400E in your photos has ASR.

    I quickly realized the differential wouldnt fit into my E420, but the differential from my fathers parts car 1994 S420 did fit. The 400E is staying stock except for the engine. The EZL is no longer available so I'll need to find one at a junk yard.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    Are the differentials from early 400se/sel's the same exact part number as the 500e differentials?
    Yes and no. Early 400SE/SEL and S420 have the same housing, input flange, and output flange. You need to use the W124 rear cover. And, it has to match ASR vs non-ASR.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I am surprised more people don't do this swap.
    It's still lots of work, and since our beloved M119's rarely blow up, I guess people just don't think it's worth it.

    I've done some calculations on it, and it is still a bit of money if you want to overhaul the new engine. I'll consider it if my engine goes to pieces or need an engine out overhaul. But not until then. I'd love the extra power though...
    Last edited by doolar; 06-13-2017 at 03:31 AM.
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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by doolar View Post
    It's still lots of work, and since our beloved M119's rarely blow up, I guess people just don't think it's worth it.

    I've done some calculations on it, and it is still a bit of money if you want to overhaul the new engine. I'll consider it if my engine goes to pieces or need an engine out overhaul. But not until then. I'd love the extra power though...
    I have seen 4 M119's grenade themselves in the last year and a half. Also, almost every M119 I'd popped the valve covers off of have broken guides and enough slack in the chain to jump timing at any moment. It's enough for me to buy a timing chain kit for every M119 car I buy.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    EZL is just timing, so yes, different maps....and LH is of course fuel...

    Jono
    Also have a quick question about the LH module. The 400E came with a fuel enrichment LH module but when I swapped it into my 420 the relay in the back started clicking loudly and rapidly. I've seen this on a 400E at work and we replaced the LH module, but is it possible to take the fuel table chip out of the fuel enrichment computer and put it in my current LH module? I remember swapping the chip with a 5.0l LH module and it was relatively easy.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    I have seen 4 M119's grenade themselves in the last year and a half. Also, almost every M119 I'd popped the valve covers off of have broken guides and enough slack in the chain to jump timing at any moment. It's enough for me to buy a timing chain kit for every M119 car I buy.
    FYI... broken chain guides can cause excess cam timing drift when measuring stretch. The chain itself is not always at fault. However, if the chain can be moved excessively in the short area between cam sprockets (say, more than a few mm) the chain may be worn and/or the sprocket teeth may be worn. On one of my cars, the chain stretch seemed excessive but after replacing all the plastic guide rails, chain stretch was back to 'normal' limits. The chains don't often wear unless the engine was seriously neglected with excessive oil change intervals and/or using incorrect oil.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    Also have a quick question about the LH module. The 400E came with a fuel enrichment LH module but when I swapped it into my 420 the relay in the back started clicking loudly and rapidly. I've seen this on a 400E at work and we replaced the LH module, but is it possible to take the fuel table chip out of the fuel enrichment computer and put it in my current LH module? I remember swapping the chip with a 5.0l LH module and it was relatively easy.
    You can fix the 'clicking' LH module by replacing the capacitors inside. The chips will work in other modules but I don't know what side effects there may be... just don't buy the eBay chip for "400E", that guy is selling 5.0L chips for 4.2L engines.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by doolar View Post
    It's still lots of work, and since our beloved M119's rarely blow up, I guess people just don't think it's worth it.

    I've done some calculations on it, and it is still a bit of money if you want to overhaul the new engine. I'll consider it if my engine goes to pieces or need an engine out overhaul. But not until then. I'd love the extra power though...
    I agree it's a ton of work. And also costs quite a bit of money refreshing a 5.0 before someone drops it back into a 400e.

    I'm very curious how much faster my car will feel after I get the bigger motor dropped in.
    1993 400E on EVO2's

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    FYI... broken chain guides can cause excess cam timing drift when measuring stretch. The chain itself is not always at fault. However, if the chain can be moved excessively in the short area between cam sprockets (say, more than a few mm) the chain may be worn and/or the sprocket teeth may be worn. On one of my cars, the chain stretch seemed excessive but after replacing all the plastic guide rails, chain stretch was back to 'normal' limits. The chains don't often wear unless the engine was seriously neglected with excessive oil change intervals and/or using incorrect oil.




    You can fix the 'clicking' LH module by replacing the capacitors inside. The chips will work in other modules but I don't know what side effects there may be... just don't buy the eBay chip for "400E", that guy is selling 5.0L chips for 4.2L engines.

    Yeah I was going to replace the guides and the chain. Mainly doing the chain because it's already torn down anyways lol. I once put a 5.0 fuel chip into my 4.2l and it messed everything up, it somehow skipped 2nd gear and went to 3rd while driving. I'll have to look into the capacitor fix.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Honestly, I think you'll find the 2.82 swap more rewarding and a lot less work and $.

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    Honestly, I think you'll find the 2.82 swap more rewarding and a lot less work and $.
    I've already done it to my E420. And my brothers 500E still pulls 4 car lengths on it.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Just a small thing - when I fitted an SL500 engine to my 500E, we had to use the original fan clutch from the 500E, because the one on the SL engine was slightly "deeper", and caused the fan to foul the radiator. Not sure how it is on the 400 engine, but you might find you have to do the same.
    Good luck!

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Absolutely you will need to use a 034/036 fan clutch.

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I'm going to do the electric fan upgrade. The engine fan will not go back in. Good way to gain 20hp from getting rid of parasitic loss.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    I'm going to do the electric fan upgrade. The engine fan will not go back in. Good way to gain 20hp from getting rid of parasitic loss.
    At low RPM / part throttle, yes there will be some power gain. At high RPM, the factory Sachs/Horton clutch had already decoupled back at 3500rpm so it's not sapping any power above that point.

    Make sure to get the highest CFM electric fan you can fit (there is a depth limit of 3 or 4 inches), and you'll also need to upgrade to a 143A or 150A alternator to feed it. The stock 110A won't push enough current at idle to run a big fan. There's a couple other detailed threads on this from, IIRC, JC220 and Jelmer.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    At low RPM / part throttle, yes there will be some power gain. At high RPM, the factory Sachs/Horton clutch had already decoupled back at 3500rpm so it's not sapping any power above that point.

    Make sure to get the highest CFM electric fan you can fit (there is a depth limit of 3 or 4 inches), and you'll also need to upgrade to a 143A or 150A alternator to feed it. The stock 110A won't push enough current at idle to run a big fan. There's a couple other detailed threads on this from, IIRC, JC220 and Jelmer.
    I remember reading them. They even show you which fans to get. I'll get an alternator from a W140. Thanks for the advice.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    So, if everything is running correctly the factory fan clutch should work. All this fuss is to reduce cost correct?

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    So, if everything is running correctly the factory fan clutch should work. All this fuss is to reduce cost correct?
    Reduce cost?


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I think it's more of an attempt to reduce parasitic drag, noted in post #24. It will probably cost more to fabricate a proper electric setup.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I think it's more of an attempt to reduce parasitic drag, noted in post #24. It will probably cost more to fabricate a proper electric setup.
    Correct. Just trying to squeeze out every hp I can, while keeping the AC and practicality of the car.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Yes and no. Early 400SE/SEL and S420 have the same housing, input flange, and output flange. You need to use the W124 rear cover. And, it has to match ASR vs non-ASR.

    Do you know the cut-off date for this? Can you use an ASR diff on a non-ASR car? I think all US-spec W140s had ASR standard.

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    Lightbulb Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    "Good way to gain 20hp from getting rid of parasitic loss." ??

    FAN....tastic! I didn't know that.... and 10hp? for the alternator 5hp less if reducing the waterpump, Power sapping?
    Someon is pulling our legs or humping...
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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    "Good way to gain 20hp from getting rid of parasitic loss." ??

    FAN....tastic! I didn't know that.... and 10hp? for the alternator 5hp less if reducing the waterpump, Power sapping?
    Someon is pulling our legs or humping...
    Why do you think BMW's have electric water pumps? Every bit helps. Parasitic loss is a thing. We've known it for decades.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I would not go with electric fans or electric water pumps on these cars. Personal experience with both is not very good.

    Mechanical fans are dated, but they work better than electric. Being in Florida, I wouldn't even consider it. It will run hot and the ac will suffer.
    1993 400E on EVO2's

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesbenz911 View Post
    Do you know the cut-off date for this?
    No, but I think the VIN break is in the EPC. I think the break is somewhere in 1994 or 1995.


    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesbenz911 View Post
    Can you use an ASR diff on a non-ASR car?
    For W124 diffs with the sensors in the diff itself, no. ASR has sensors on each output shaft, non-ASR has a single sensor at the pinion. They are NOT interchangeable.


    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesbenz911 View Post
    I think all US-spec W140s had ASR standard.
    This is not correct, at least not for all years. Early 140's had ASR standard on the 5.0L and 6.0L only. At some point in production (1996?) it may have become standard on all 140's, but I'm not certain.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Raffaelli View Post
    I would not go with electric fans or electric water pumps on these cars. Personal experience with both is not very good.

    Mechanical fans are dated, but they work better than electric. Being in Florida, I wouldn't even consider it. It will run hot and the ac will suffer.
    I dont want an electric waterpump. Just an electric fan setup.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Electric fan installation has been documented on this forum by Jelmer and ChristianK, I believe. There are plusses and minuses to it.

    Parasitic power loss ... is that really going to be significant? A well-operating cooling system should work just fine in 98% of situations. By well-operating I mean good radiator, fan clutch, thermostat and water pump.

    The only situation where cooling gets a bit dicey is in very high ambient temps, 90F and higher, particularly with high humidity and if the car is sitting in traffic or going slower speeds.

    Honestly, an electric fan is overkill IMHO; a good fan clutch is going to move one heck of a lot of air mechanically.

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Don't stop at water pumps... the newer trend to electric oil pumps too! We've had some very hot days (high 90s) where road construction brought us down to a crawl for nearly an hr. With the a/c on my car was stable @ 100-105 and when I got on an access road, I was able to do 40-50 mph- it cooled right down to 90c.

    All the big trucks I think use fan clutches.. they can move alot of air when engaged... think they are over 50 hp drain [on a big truck].

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  61. #39
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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Watch this. It makes sense to ditch the fan.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXdLgaFXZzs


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    Watch this. It makes sense to ditch the fan.
    The closest correlation is the clutched fan, data shown at 6:36 in the video. In their test it lost 14hp and 7tq. The fixed-fan data (30hp loss!) is irrelevant for a Mercedes M119 discussion.

    What we don't know is if that Chevy fan clutch was engaged or not, and if engaged, does it have an RPM cutout like the M119 (which freewheels the fan at 3500rpm regardless of temperature, for the Sachs/Horton factory clutch).

    Since the clutched Chevy fan showed the greatest loss between 4000-5500rpm, I'm suspicious that clutch was not disengaging fully at higher RPM.

    There's no way an M119 fan is sucking 15hp above 4000rpm. IMHO, anyway. But yes, there would be a measurable difference at lower RPM when the M119 clutch is engaged.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    The closest correlation is the clutched fan, data shown at 6:36 in the video. In their test it lost 14hp and 7tq. The fixed-fan data (30hp loss!) is irrelevant for a Mercedes M119 discussion.

    What we don't know is if that Chevy fan clutch was engaged or not, and if engaged, does it have an RPM cutout like the M119 (which freewheels the fan at 3500rpm regardless of temperature, for the Sachs/Horton factory clutch).

    Since the clutched Chevy fan showed the greatest loss between 4000-5500rpm, I'm suspicious that clutch was not disengaging fully at higher RPM.

    There's no way an M119 fan is sucking 15hp above 4000rpm. IMHO, anyway. But yes, there would be a measurable difference at lower RPM when the M119 clutch is engaged.



    Dave, with all the drag racing you do, you might get out of the hole a bit faster with an electric fan

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Dave, with all the drag racing you do, you might get out of the hole a bit faster with an electric fan
    True! However for bracket racing, consistency is the key. As long as it does the same thing every pass, that is better than making more power.

    For a test, I should remove the fan clutch on a cool day and see if there is any noticeable difference in either consistency or 60' times.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    The closest correlation is the clutched fan, data shown at 6:36 in the video. In their test it lost 14hp and 7tq. The fixed-fan data (30hp loss!) is irrelevant for a Mercedes M119 discussion.

    What we don't know is if that Chevy fan clutch was engaged or not, and if engaged, does it have an RPM cutout like the M119 (which freewheels the fan at 3500rpm regardless of temperature, for the Sachs/Horton factory clutch).

    Since the clutched Chevy fan showed the greatest loss between 4000-5500rpm, I'm suspicious that clutch was not disengaging fully at higher RPM.

    There's no way an M119 fan is sucking 15hp above 4000rpm. IMHO, anyway. But yes, there would be a measurable difference at lower RPM when the M119 clutch is engaged.

    Oh yeah, I wasn't comparing chevy fans to Mercedes fans. I was using the video as proof that parasitic loss is a thing and mechanical fans do drain hp and tq. That being said I want the extra hp at lower revs, I wont be needing the HP at higher rpms after it gives the initial push off the line. My plans are to keep the 400E pretty much stock looking except for the engine fan setup.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I had heard from an MB fellow years ago that the fan clutch on a 117 ate about 10hp @ full song.

    Ditching a fan clutch does result in tangible re-ability.

    I will say getting enough electric in there w/ an appropriate shroud takes some Doing. The modern pulse width modulated fans that MB uses move UNGODLY amounts of air..but you need the PWM signal...there are a few ways you can do that...the easiest is to have the module on a switch in the car and you can vary as neccesary..but there are ones you can hook up to temp sensors etc. The last SEC we did w/ a PWM fan came from a 203 and fit up Very nicely.

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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I know here is a big difference between M119's, but would I be able to get a coil over plug M119 and convert it to the older distributor style? I found an M119 5.0 from a 1998 SL500 but I need to know if I can swap everything over before I buy it.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    I know here is a big difference between M119's, but would I be able to get a coil over plug M119 and convert it to the older distributor style? I found an M119 5.0 from a 1998 SL500 but I need to know if I can swap everything over before I buy it.
    You can swap everything over but it's a LOT of work. It's been done before, I think Roger (?) documented this by converting a W210 E50 AMG M119 engine to LH distributors and installing in a W124. Valve covers, all 4 cam sprockets, front head covers, complete intake manifold, probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. The R129 is a preferred donor as you should be able to leave the oil pan and exhaust manifolds alone - those should work on the W124.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    You can swap everything over but it's a LOT of work. It's been done before, I think Roger (?) documented this by converting a W210 E50 AMG M119 engine to LH distributors and installing in a W124. Valve covers, all 4 cam sprockets, front head covers, complete intake manifold, probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. The R129 is a preferred donor as you should be able to leave the oil pan and exhaust manifolds alone - those should work on the W124.

    Thank you. I'm on the hunt for an SL500 engine right now.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    Thank you. I'm on the hunt for an SL500 engine right now.
    Ideally you want a 119.972 motor from a 1993-1995 USA model year 500SL/SL500 (129.067). This is 100% plug+play into a W124/M119 chassis.

    I wouldn't mess with a 96-99 SL500 engine (119.980) unless you couldn't find a .972 motor, and/or the .980 was very cheap and looked like new inside & out.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I don't know if you would be interested, I do have the engine and trans from the 1992 500E that I parted out earlier this year.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by captruff View Post
    I don't know if you would be interested, I do have the engine and trans from the 1992 500E that I parted out earlier this year.


    Jeff
    That would be way out of my budget. I'm shopping around for a $500 engine.


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    That would be way out of my budget. I'm shopping around for a $500 engine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I can do $500.00 for the engine....the challenge will be the shipping. I can secure the engine to a wooden pallet and I have forklift access to load onto a common carrier at my commercial address. Zip code 92610-2503

    I do not have any contacts for any common carrier discounts.

    Jeff
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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Update: I caved and pulled the 4.2l out of my Ute and put it into the 400E and sold my Ute. Horrible decisions you have to make when trying to be a mature adult. (Going to build a house).


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    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    IMG_3901.JPG




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