Results 1 to 30 of 30

Thread: 400E 5.0 swap

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    400E 5.0 swap

    Anyone in here that has done a 5.0 swap to their 400E/E420? I'm under the impression that it should be a straight forward swap with a 5.0 LH module. I'm using an M119.970 from a 500sel so the oil pump and oil pan have to be swapped, are there any problems/kinks that some of you have run into?

    IMG_3428.JPGIMG_3429.JPGIMG_3430.JPGIMG_3432.JPGIMG_3438.JPGIMG_3440.JPGIMG_3444.JPGIMG_3458.JPG


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  3. #2
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Yep, you are correct... swap oil pan+pump, exhaust manifolds, and use 5.0 LH module + EZL. Straightforward but not easy. Part of the fun is the oil pan is used to mount the engine to the stand, as seen in your photo... can't swap the oil pan with it on a stand like that.

    If the donor engine was a 119.972 it would be easier as the oil pan and manifolds are the same as the W124.


  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gsxr For This Useful Post:

    gerryvz (2 Weeks Ago), TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  5. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Yep, you are correct... swap oil pan+pump, exhaust manifolds, and use 5.0 LH module + EZL. Straightforward but not easy. Part of the fun is the oil pan is used to mount the engine to the stand, as seen in your photo... can't swap the oil pan with it on a stand like that.

    If the donor engine was a 119.972 it would be easier as the oil pan and manifolds are the same as the W124.

    I just use a ratchet strap to pull the engine up a bit and release the tension off the lower bolts which allows me to turn the engine upside down and remove the pan.

    I only paid $400 for the engine, LH module, and 2.82 differential that came out of a 500sel. The guy said it was his daily driver but when I opened it up both upper guide rails were broken in half and the chain could be lifted off the cam gear an 1/8". So I'm going to order a timing chain kit and a reseal kit and put it back together slowly before plopping it into the 400E. What is the main different between the 4.2 and 5.0 ezl? Timing adjustment?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    gsxr (2 Weeks Ago), TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  7. #4
    "Nit-Picky and
    Bitter Mechanic"
    jhodg5ck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Lilburn, GA
    Posts
    1,854

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    you prolly have to swap the engine mount arms/legs.. maybe manifolds.

    Shouldn't be too bad really.. We did one here a couple of years ago. would be good to change the timing guide rails while it's out. Take care of the harness/mounts/rear main, power steering hoses...all that good stuff..


    jono
    Blue Ridge Mercedes Jonathan Hodgman
    Mercedes Repair Atlanta
    http://www.blueridgemb.com/
    08 E63; 05 E55 Estate; 95 S600; 93 500E Brumos/RTech; 92 500E T/R; 93 500E Pearl Gray
    91 560SEC ECE; 87 Hammer Coupe, Sedan and Wagon 6.0L 32V; 86 560SEL AMG 6.0L 32V

  8. #5
    "Nit-Picky and
    Bitter Mechanic"
    jhodg5ck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Lilburn, GA
    Posts
    1,854

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    EZL is just timing, so yes, different maps....and LH is of course fuel...

    Jono
    Blue Ridge Mercedes Jonathan Hodgman
    Mercedes Repair Atlanta
    http://www.blueridgemb.com/
    08 E63; 05 E55 Estate; 95 S600; 93 500E Brumos/RTech; 92 500E T/R; 93 500E Pearl Gray
    91 560SEC ECE; 87 Hammer Coupe, Sedan and Wagon 6.0L 32V; 86 560SEL AMG 6.0L 32V

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to jhodg5ck For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  10. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    you prolly have to swap the engine mount arms/legs.. maybe manifolds.

    Shouldn't be too bad really.. We did one here a couple of years ago. would be good to change the timing guide rails while it's out. Take care of the harness/mounts/rear main, power steering hoses...all that good stuff..


    jono
    Yeah I'm doing the timing chain and guides, and doing a reseal. It's going to be a daily driver so I wanna address all the common issues.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  12. #7
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    EZL is just timing, so yes, different maps....and LH is of course fuel...
    Yup, what Jono said. Different fuel & ignition maps. The fuel curve is more critical.


  13. The Following User Says Thank You to gsxr For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  14. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Ahh, I'll have to get an EZL then.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  16. #9
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    ... and 2.82 differential that came out of a 500sel.
    See if you can get the EZL fro the same car, if available. The 5.0 engine will run and drive with the (early) 4.2 EZL but it would be best to get the proper 5.0 EZL.

    BTW, that 2.82 differential won't bolt in to a W124 subframe. The 140.05x uses the larger / reinforced diff which is completely different. You could swap the ring+pinion but ugh, that's a nightmare. If you want 2.82 for cheap, you need to find an early 400SE/SEL donor. Or, get a 2.65 diff from a 129.066 chassis; just make sure the donor has ASR since it appears the black 400E in your photos has ASR.


  17. The Following User Says Thank You to gsxr For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  18. #10

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Are the differentials from early 400se/sel's the same exact part number as the 500e differentials?
    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    See if you can get the EZL fro the same car, if available. The 5.0 engine will run and drive with the (early) 4.2 EZL but it would be best to get the proper 5.0 EZL.

    BTW, that 2.82 differential won't bolt in to a W124 subframe. The 140.05x uses the larger / reinforced diff which is completely different. You could swap the ring+pinion but ugh, that's a nightmare. If you want 2.82 for cheap, you need to find an early 400SE/SEL donor. Or, get a 2.65 diff from a 129.066 chassis; just make sure the donor has ASR since it appears the black 400E in your photos has ASR.


  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Stevester 500E For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  20. #11

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I am surprised more people don't do this swap.

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to Stevester 500E For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  22. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    See if you can get the EZL fro the same car, if available. The 5.0 engine will run and drive with the (early) 4.2 EZL but it would be best to get the proper 5.0 EZL.

    BTW, that 2.82 differential won't bolt in to a W124 subframe. The 140.05x uses the larger / reinforced diff which is completely different. You could swap the ring+pinion but ugh, that's a nightmare. If you want 2.82 for cheap, you need to find an early 400SE/SEL donor. Or, get a 2.65 diff from a 129.066 chassis; just make sure the donor has ASR since it appears the black 400E in your photos has ASR.

    I quickly realized the differential wouldnt fit into my E420, but the differential from my fathers parts car 1994 S420 did fit. The 400E is staying stock except for the engine. The EZL is no longer available so I'll need to find one at a junk yard.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  24. #13
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    Are the differentials from early 400se/sel's the same exact part number as the 500e differentials?
    Yes and no. Early 400SE/SEL and S420 have the same housing, input flange, and output flange. You need to use the W124 rear cover. And, it has to match ASR vs non-ASR.


  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gsxr For This Useful Post:

    Stevester 500E (2 Weeks Ago), TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  26. #14
    Senior Member doolar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Malmö, Sweden
    Age
    42
    Posts
    384

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I am surprised more people don't do this swap.
    It's still lots of work, and since our beloved M119's rarely blow up, I guess people just don't think it's worth it.

    I've done some calculations on it, and it is still a bit of money if you want to overhaul the new engine. I'll consider it if my engine goes to pieces or need an engine out overhaul. But not until then. I'd love the extra power though...
    Last edited by doolar; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:31 AM.
    Thomas
    1994 E420
    1993 500E - (my fathers)

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to doolar For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  28. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by doolar View Post
    It's still lots of work, and since our beloved M119's rarely blow up, I guess people just don't think it's worth it.

    I've done some calculations on it, and it is still a bit of money if you want to overhaul the new engine. I'll consider it if my engine goes to pieces or need an engine out overhaul. But not until then. I'd love the extra power though...
    I have seen 4 M119's grenade themselves in the last year and a half. Also, almost every M119 I'd popped the valve covers off of have broken guides and enough slack in the chain to jump timing at any moment. It's enough for me to buy a timing chain kit for every M119 car I buy.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  29. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    doolar (2 Weeks Ago), gerryvz (2 Weeks Ago), TerryA (2 Weeks Ago)

  30. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    EZL is just timing, so yes, different maps....and LH is of course fuel...

    Jono
    Also have a quick question about the LH module. The 400E came with a fuel enrichment LH module but when I swapped it into my 420 the relay in the back started clicking loudly and rapidly. I've seen this on a 400E at work and we replaced the LH module, but is it possible to take the fuel table chip out of the fuel enrichment computer and put it in my current LH module? I remember swapping the chip with a 5.0l LH module and it was relatively easy.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  31. #17
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    I have seen 4 M119's grenade themselves in the last year and a half. Also, almost every M119 I'd popped the valve covers off of have broken guides and enough slack in the chain to jump timing at any moment. It's enough for me to buy a timing chain kit for every M119 car I buy.
    FYI... broken chain guides can cause excess cam timing drift when measuring stretch. The chain itself is not always at fault. However, if the chain can be moved excessively in the short area between cam sprockets (say, more than a few mm) the chain may be worn and/or the sprocket teeth may be worn. On one of my cars, the chain stretch seemed excessive but after replacing all the plastic guide rails, chain stretch was back to 'normal' limits. The chains don't often wear unless the engine was seriously neglected with excessive oil change intervals and/or using incorrect oil.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    Also have a quick question about the LH module. The 400E came with a fuel enrichment LH module but when I swapped it into my 420 the relay in the back started clicking loudly and rapidly. I've seen this on a 400E at work and we replaced the LH module, but is it possible to take the fuel table chip out of the fuel enrichment computer and put it in my current LH module? I remember swapping the chip with a 5.0l LH module and it was relatively easy.
    You can fix the 'clicking' LH module by replacing the capacitors inside. The chips will work in other modules but I don't know what side effects there may be... just don't buy the eBay chip for "400E", that guy is selling 5.0L chips for 4.2L engines.


  32. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    241

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by doolar View Post
    It's still lots of work, and since our beloved M119's rarely blow up, I guess people just don't think it's worth it.

    I've done some calculations on it, and it is still a bit of money if you want to overhaul the new engine. I'll consider it if my engine goes to pieces or need an engine out overhaul. But not until then. I'd love the extra power though...
    I agree it's a ton of work. And also costs quite a bit of money refreshing a 5.0 before someone drops it back into a 400e.

    I'm very curious how much faster my car will feel after I get the bigger motor dropped in.
    1993 400E on EVO2's

  33. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    FYI... broken chain guides can cause excess cam timing drift when measuring stretch. The chain itself is not always at fault. However, if the chain can be moved excessively in the short area between cam sprockets (say, more than a few mm) the chain may be worn and/or the sprocket teeth may be worn. On one of my cars, the chain stretch seemed excessive but after replacing all the plastic guide rails, chain stretch was back to 'normal' limits. The chains don't often wear unless the engine was seriously neglected with excessive oil change intervals and/or using incorrect oil.




    You can fix the 'clicking' LH module by replacing the capacitors inside. The chips will work in other modules but I don't know what side effects there may be... just don't buy the eBay chip for "400E", that guy is selling 5.0L chips for 4.2L engines.

    Yeah I was going to replace the guides and the chain. Mainly doing the chain because it's already torn down anyways lol. I once put a 5.0 fuel chip into my 4.2l and it messed everything up, it somehow skipped 2nd gear and went to 3rd while driving. I'll have to look into the capacitor fix.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  34. #20
    E500E Guru
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    DFW Texas
    Posts
    2,276

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Honestly, I think you'll find the 2.82 swap more rewarding and a lot less work and $.

  35. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    Honestly, I think you'll find the 2.82 swap more rewarding and a lot less work and $.
    I've already done it to my E420. And my brothers 500E still pulls 4 car lengths on it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  36. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    361

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Just a small thing - when I fitted an SL500 engine to my 500E, we had to use the original fan clutch from the 500E, because the one on the SL engine was slightly "deeper", and caused the fan to foul the radiator. Not sure how it is on the 400 engine, but you might find you have to do the same.
    Good luck!

  37. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to r44raven For This Useful Post:

    sheward (1 Week Ago)

  38. #23
    E500E Guru
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    DFW Texas
    Posts
    2,276

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Absolutely you will need to use a 034/036 fan clutch.

  39. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to samiam44 For This Useful Post:

    gsxr (1 Week Ago), sheward (1 Week Ago), TerryA (1 Week Ago)

  40. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I'm going to do the electric fan upgrade. The engine fan will not go back in. Good way to gain 20hp from getting rid of parasitic loss.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  41. The Following User Says Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (1 Week Ago)

  42. #25
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    I'm going to do the electric fan upgrade. The engine fan will not go back in. Good way to gain 20hp from getting rid of parasitic loss.
    At low RPM / part throttle, yes there will be some power gain. At high RPM, the factory Sachs/Horton clutch had already decoupled back at 3500rpm so it's not sapping any power above that point.

    Make sure to get the highest CFM electric fan you can fit (there is a depth limit of 3 or 4 inches), and you'll also need to upgrade to a 143A or 150A alternator to feed it. The stock 110A won't push enough current at idle to run a big fan. There's a couple other detailed threads on this from, IIRC, JC220 and Jelmer.


  43. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to gsxr For This Useful Post:

    Klink (1 Week Ago), sheward (1 Week Ago), TerryA (1 Week Ago)

  44. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    At low RPM / part throttle, yes there will be some power gain. At high RPM, the factory Sachs/Horton clutch had already decoupled back at 3500rpm so it's not sapping any power above that point.

    Make sure to get the highest CFM electric fan you can fit (there is a depth limit of 3 or 4 inches), and you'll also need to upgrade to a 143A or 150A alternator to feed it. The stock 110A won't push enough current at idle to run a big fan. There's a couple other detailed threads on this from, IIRC, JC220 and Jelmer.
    I remember reading them. They even show you which fans to get. I'll get an alternator from a W140. Thanks for the advice.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  45. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jord For This Useful Post:

    Klink (1 Week Ago), TerryA (1 Week Ago)

  46. #27
    E500E Guru
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    DFW Texas
    Posts
    2,276

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    So, if everything is running correctly the factory fan clutch should work. All this fuss is to reduce cost correct?

  47. The Following User Says Thank You to samiam44 For This Useful Post:

    TerryA (1 Week Ago)

  48. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    So, if everything is running correctly the factory fan clutch should work. All this fuss is to reduce cost correct?
    Reduce cost?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  49. #29
    .036 Hoonigan™
    E500E Boffin
    gsxr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Boise, ID, USA
    Posts
    17,932

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    I think it's more of an attempt to reduce parasitic drag, noted in post #24. It will probably cost more to fabricate a proper electric setup.


  50. #30
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Starke Florida
    Posts
    75

    Re: 400E 5.0 swap

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I think it's more of an attempt to reduce parasitic drag, noted in post #24. It will probably cost more to fabricate a proper electric setup.
    Correct. Just trying to squeeze out every hp I can, while keeping the AC and practicality of the car.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Similar Threads

  1. E500 radiator swap
    By ERASE in forum Heating and Cooling
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 09-17-2015, 05:07 PM
  2. Looking for DIY for Headlight swap
    By Maui in forum Appearance and Detailing
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-22-2013, 08:55 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-01-2012, 04:53 PM
  4. an interesting 400E to 500E engine swap
    By John Bicht in forum 400E / E420 Discussions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-02-2012, 05:54 AM
  5. Help - Engine swap 500E
    By karmann44 in forum M119 Engine
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-01-2011, 01:50 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •