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Thread: 1992 500E No start issue

  1. #1
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    1992 500E No start issue

    Hello Everyone.
    I will preface this with the fact that I am not a 500E expert.
    A customer of mine brought in his 500E to have me upgrade the brakes and do a transmission flush and fill.
    Upon draining the fluid it because very apparent that the 722.3 gearbox needed a full overhaul.
    I rebuilt the gearbox (including having to replace most of the steels inside the box). And reinstalled it. After that the car would not start. Didn't even want to try to start. I replaced the CPS as they are common failure points and then it almost attempts to start but not quite.
    The LH showed a code 27. We replaced the LH with another and now get only 1 flash showing all is good. When cranking at this point the car would want to start but not quite fire up.
    The customer believed it to be an issue with the insulation plates in the distributors and as the ignition leads were very obviously in need of replacement. We did an ignition tune up with all caps, rotors, leads, and insulation plates. The rotor adapter was the 06 40 so they were not replaced. Before replacing these parts in troubleshooting the car did show ignition timing at around 12 BTDC while cranking on cylinder number 1.
    Now here is where it gets strange.
    After replacement of caps, rotors, and ignition leads the car now shows 45 BTDC (vs 12 ATDC) during cranking with cylinder 1...... And no longer attempts to really start after doing that. This is where we are now and are a little stumped.

    We have done a compression test and determined that all cylinders are 170-180 PSI (except cyl 1 which is a little off due to a slightly leaking intake valve, but not enough to prevent starting)

    The car has 60 PSI fuel pressure and the pump runs the moment you put the car to the run position.
    The upper engine harness has been replaced with new.
    The lower harness has not been replaced yet.

    All 3 magnets are on the ring gear and have not been disturbed. I can not find any literature which says that the ring gear must be installed in 1 direction.

    The ignition leads were put on the following way.
    Pass side (r)
    ...4
    1.....6
    ...7
    Drivers side (L)
    ...5
    2.....8
    ...3
    The coil leads were replaced 1 at a time so that they were not switched to be backwards. The rotors, cap etc. are bosch, with the wires being Bremi. All boots were installed with dielectric grease on the plugs.

    If anyone has any suggestions, or even things to check, please let me know, I will check them and post back right away.

  2. #2
    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Have you confirmed fuel + spark (or lack thereof)? If there is spark, what happens with a small shot of starting fluid / ether sprayed down intake?

    Also - do you have communication with all modules via Star / HHT-Win? Checked fuses on the BM/GM, checked "small" wire at positive battery terminal?

    BTW - welcome to the forum!

    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
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  3. #3
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Small wires are tight on the battery. Though I have not cleaned them.

    The 3 fuses on the top of the GM unit are all good.

    pulled all plugs and cranked. Good spark on all cylinders.

    LH does 1 blink.
    EZL does 1 blink.

    I have also spaced out the CKP (New FAE 79242 part) the .5mm

    Fuel pressure at 60 PSI when pump primes. I do get injector PWs to the injectors, which was confirmed with a noid light.

    I have not used ether, but I have free poured a little gasoline down the MAF (careful to not hit the hotwire) and it made no difference in it trying to start.....

    Thank you for the welcome. I will also be sure to post up the final fix to this to ensure that anyone else running into this can get a resolution as well.

  4. #4

    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Here is a diagram for the ignition wire to cylinder connections.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  6. #5
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Thank you Sylvester, that is how I have the ignition leads.

    I just managed to get a screenshot of it during cranking and it's closer to 60 deg ATDC during cranking.

  7. #6
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue



    This shows the firing angle from cyl 1 during cranking. This is showing it as closer to 60+ deg ATDC....

  8. #7
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    The story/plot gets even stranger.... I switched the coil leads and cranked it. The car started.
    However, it is showing almost 45 deg BTDC during idle, and is not idling very smoothly.... granted, it may be a little flooded and need to clear out some...


  9. #8
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    you definetly need to check the timing chain...to see if the timing is spot on.
    1992 w124 500e "Blackbeauty"
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  10. #9
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    I also wanted to ask, regarding the magnets on the ring gear.
    This car only has 2, they are 180 deg out. I cannot find any spots that look like 1 is missing.
    How many are magnets are supposed to be there on a 92?

    Lowman,
    I had hoped that it wasn't chain related and seeing as before I had replaced the leads it was cranking at 12 BTDC with 170-180 compression on all cylinders, I did not believe that it could be the chain at all. But I suppose anything is possible.

  11. #10
    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    I can help with the ring gear magnets: There are only 2 present. The engine will start and run with only 1 magnet but it throws a continuous code on the EZL and will intermittently have extended cranking. (Don't ask how I know this.)

    If the car is running OK now, it's likely the coil leads were the issue (which is weird). But, it would not hurt to check cam timing. To check chain stretch pull the passenger valve cover and measure at the exhaust cam. With new guides and new chain and no sprocket wear, it should be 0-2° off spec. With normal wear it may be 2-6° or so. Beyond 6° and either the chain and/or guides are worn, but may still run fine. 8-10° or more, take it apart to find out what's wrong. 1 tooth at the cam sprocket = 20° at the damper indicator.


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  13. #11
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    cjensan928s,

    This post may help you verify the correct coil wire connections, but it sounds like you've got it now.

    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...bosch+ignition
    Jon D.
    1994 E420
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Thank you Emery for that.
    Right now I have the R (passenger side coil) is on the outboard coil now.
    I had it on the inboard originally, and with it there the car will not start.

    Could anyone possibly confirm orientation of the ring gear has an effect or no effect?

  16. #13
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Quote Originally Posted by cjensan928s View Post
    Could anyone possibly confirm orientation of the ring gear has an effect or no effect?
    Orientation on the ring gear has no effect. There are only 2 places for the magnets to attach on the ring gear, and the ring gear is keyed to only attach to the crankshaft in one position. Sounds to me like the primary wires to the coil may be reversed, if you had to swap secondary leads from normal factory configuration...


  17. #14
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    GSXR,

    im afraid that the ring gear is not keyed and can be installed in 3 different orientations.

    Ive pulled it back out and will be trying to locate the correct orientation.

  18. #15
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    Quote Originally Posted by cjensan928s View Post
    im afraid that the ring gear is not keyed and can be installed in 3 different orientations.

    I've pulled it back out and will be trying to locate the correct orientation.
    I should have asked previously... are we talking about the ring gear / flex plate that the torque converter bolts to? Where you have to remove the transmission to access it?

    All the ones I've seen on the E500E are a single assembly, where the outer ring gear is not removable from the center section (everything is riveted together). The center plate is keyed to only fit the crankshaft in one position, via a pin/dowel in the crank. Photo attached.

    If you happen to have a setup where the two pieces are separate... you are correct, it could be re-assembled in 3 different positions. The FSM mentions two 3.5mm holes that should be lined up, and the hole in the ring gear is not present in the photo I attached of the single-piece assembly. FSM link below, see page 4, step 5.
    http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20...19/03-4100.pdf

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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    I managed to locate that page in the manual late last night. This ring gear was loose and was not bolted to the flex plate at all.
    It was loose when the 6 bolts holding the torque converter were undone.

    I had pulled the transmission again yesterday, and have it orientated correctly now.
    It is now going back together with it in the correct location.

    I will confirm once it is running that was 100% the issue. It is strange though that it was sparking at 12 BTDC before changing the caps/rotors/leads. And that after it was firing way off.

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  22. #17
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    Re: 1992 500E No start issue

    With ring gear being put back into the correct position, and the coil leads being put back onto their original coils, the car fired right up and was in a much happier idle. I will now be able to fill the transmission and complete the repairs.

    Thank you all for your help!

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