New Owner, Transmission Fluid Type Question?

[Alex89]

Hello Guys,

I recently bough very nice 95' E420 with only 55k miles in beautiful condition. Now that I have it I want to do simple tune ups to it. I changed oil and filter, and air filers last weekend, and next I want to change transmission fluid.

Which one to get is my main question. I am in FL and summers are going to be very hot. I see DEX lll is what should be in there and I also see suggestions for RedLine ATF D4. Which one is better, or is there another one I should consider, OEM, M1?

I wanted 500e so bad but since I am not too familiar with them I figured I can start with E420 first. Car rides amazing. I am sure down the road I will get 500E too...

Thx!

[gsxr]

Any Dexron III fluid is fine, that was the original factory spec. Synthetics like Red Line D4 and Mobil-1 ATF are both Dex-III equivalents, either would be fine. In a hot climate I'd prefer a synthetic ATF to help deal with the temperatures. Remember you will need ~8.5 quarts total after draining the pan and converter, and have to fill it partway then start the engine before filling the rest, etc...

Some additional reading:

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6209

BTW, welcome to the forum!

[jhodg5ck]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

aka, Redline Racing ATF is you want the GoodGood.

but that's just me...

[gsxr]

LOL - yes, Jono is right, if you want quick/firm shifts... Type F will do that. (Red Line Racing is their high-temp viscosity in a Type F formula, without any friction modifiers.) If you switch to Type F, you might need to fiddle with the vacuum modulator adjustment afterwards.

[Alex89]

Yea I saw bunch of post how to do the change and most useful on this forum, mainly the first one you posted gsxr and there was another one with pics.

I want to switch to a good one but I do not want mess with vacuum modulator since I am not sure how, so I might just stick to D4. I don't drive the car every day nor I drive it hard so I am sure D4 or M1 will be fine. Which one is better really? I know I can get M1 in stores probably but D4 I got to order online.

Thx for the fast reply guys!

[samiam44]

Can you even get straight D3 or D4 anymore? When I go to the store, they have only a Dextron/mercon universal stuff. Works, but it's a different range.

I don't think you can go wrong with any red-trans fluid in these cars as long as it's fresh. New to the car? Do the diff fluid, PS, coolant(G5) and brake fluid (DOT4) too.


Michael

[gsxr]

M1 and D4 are both good products. I'd not hesitate to use either one.

M1 will be easier to source locally, and may be cheaper. I personally haven't been happy with Mobil since they quietly switched most of their engine oil product line to cheaper Group III base stocks about 10-12 years ago, while keeping the price the same (and then increasing the price). So, I prefer to pay more to buy from a company that doesn't pull that kind of shenanigans. Again, M-1 ATF is still a good product! And most FLAPS / McParts will carry it on the shelf.

Red Line is more expensive (about $12/qt) and you'd probably have to order online. I've been buying from Summit Racing, they have free shipping on orders over $99, which you'd hit buying 9 or 10 quarts. You may want to buy 2 gallon jugs and then another 1-2 quarts. The gallon jugs are more convenient than quart bottles. It's harder to find local vendors that carry Red Line on the shelf.

Amsoil Signature Series Multi-Vehicle ATF is also good stuff, if you don't mind dealing with their funky marketing scheme. Unless you buy the "preferred customer" membership, the price is on the high side, similar to Red Line.

[Alex89]

Yes that was my plan, to change all the fluids. Already have Motul 5.1 and PS filter. Now in search for good PS fluid for the car too ...I used G-05 in my Saab and its amazing. Should I try the newest Benz coolant in this one? I didn't look into diff oil but that's a good idea, I will do that too. I also want to change the original harness even though it looks amazing. So some fun times are ahead of me, but I enjoy doing it. Maybe the car will be little more aggressive after all those changes since its seems little sluggish to me (but that's probably because I am used to smaller sportier cars)

Ok, I will look for D4 or M1, but just like you said, I am leaning toward D4 because I don't like what M1 did either. And it looks like it will be from Summit Racing unless I can find a better deal. I heard Amsol is good too, but its harder to get too and I never used it for anything so idk...I will do some research and choose soon.

Thx again for all the help, this forum is awesome!

[gerryvz]

Use Zerex G-05, mixed 50-50 with water, in your E500. You can get it at any O'Reilly Auto Parts in either pre-mixed 50-50 or full-strength gallons. Don't bother with the current-spec MB coolant. Use the stuff that was originally spec'd for our cars.

As for lubes, I'd use RedLine over Amsoil any day. It's easy enough to get any RedLine product via on-line (Amazon, Summit, JEGS, etc.) sources, or if you look hard enough and live in a city/suburb, you can find it locally.

Cheers,
Gerry

[Alex89]

Ok, RedLine it is ...

Thx, I think coolant flush will be little challenging because of the exact amount of coolant used in the system. I read somewhere here, I think, I should add 6l or 6q of coolant and rest water (I always put distilled). So I will do that probably last since next to amount of fluid there are 2 drains and a petcock, plus I like to flush it by warming the car up till the fan kicks in so I flush everything, and I do that few times with distilled water. But I will stick to G-05, it did work well for me in the past.

And last one, what PS fluid should I get? MB one? If so what's the part #?

Thx!

[nocfn]

Can't go wrong with MB fluids, my dealer is almost an hour away so I buy the equivalent febi for both sls and ps:

[gsxr]

Yes that was my plan, to change all the fluids. Already have Motul 5.1 and PS filter.

Remember that pressure bleeding is required if the car has ASR (follow FSM procedure!), and still highly recommended even if you don't have ASR.

Now in search for good PS fluid for the car too

No search required. Use OE MB dealer PS fluid. It's not expensive, and there's no aftermarket stuff that offers any significant advantages.

...I used G-05 in my Saab and its amazing. Should I try the newest Benz coolant in this one?

Nope. Stick with G-05. Make sure to open both block drains. Pre-mix to 50/50 (or your favorite blend) and pour in pre-mix only! The claimed system capacity of 16+ quarts may be wrong, I believe it's closer to 12-3 quarts. You'll only drain out around 9-10 quarts from radiator and block. Fill the block via upper radiator hose first, then fill the radiator via the plastic reservoir (replace the reservoir if it's old / yellow / cracked). Lots of older threads on this topic, search the forum...

I didn't look into diff oil but that's a good idea, I will do that too.

Yes it's a good idea, any 75W-90 or 80W-90 will work. Synthetic may or may not be a good idea; if you get any leaks it could require dropping the diff to re-seal. Red Line, M-1, Amsoil are all fine. I like Motul Gear 300 because it pours like water at room temp, making the fill process easier... but Gear 300 is almost $20/liter and you need 1.3 liters. Fresh dino lube is probably better than the old stuff though.

I also want to change the original harness even though it looks amazing. So some fun times are ahead of me, but I enjoy doing it.

Check the date code, it may have already been changed. Replacing a late-datecode harness would be a waste of money. If it's not causing problems, focus on other items first. The lower harness to starter / alternator is NLA, if this is in bad shape you'll need to talk to Jono at Blue Ridge in Hotlanta about a rebuilt harness.

Maybe the car will be little more aggressive after all those changes since its seems little sluggish to me (but that's probably because I am used to smaller sportier cars)

The 2.24 gears make it feel sluggish at lower speeds. Some Italian tune-up wouldn't hurt. If you think it's underperforming, check the speedo accuracy with GPS, then clock it from 0-60 (or higher) via stopwatch. Better yet visit a local dragstrip. It should pull smoothly to the 6000rpm redline at each full-throttle upshift.

[gerryvz]

Just get the MB power steering fluid. You can get it at AutohauZ.

See this link, for the non-synthetic fluid. It's $10 a quart for the Genuine stuff. Just pick up 2-3 quarts and you're good.

[gsxr]

Can't go wrong with MB fluids, my dealer is almost an hour away so I buy the equivalent febi for both sls and ps:

Just to clarify... the USA-spec 400E/E420 generally does not have SLS. It was not offered in USA but was available via special order, possibly with Euro delivery. I've seen one, as in a single, .034 in USA with a VIN confirmed to have SLS.

And, the PS and SLS fluids are different. Don't use SLS fluid in the PS system, or vice-versa...

[Alex89]

Great info again. I will use MB genuine PS fluid for sure.

I don't have ASR and was planning on manual bleeding. But will look into pressure bleeding too. I manually bled breaks over 5-6 times and never had problems so that's why I feel little more confident about not pressure bleeding haha

I already checked my harness and its from 92', but with such a low miles and car being pampered so much I don't think its bad and it doesn't look bad at all. I will change it eventually just for a piece of mind but you make a good point, I will do all this tune ups first.

Ok, I will prob look for 80W-90 diff oil since I am in FL.

True, car is sluggish in low rpms but at like 60mph it can move fast. I haven't done WOT yet since I don't know the car and I want to change all the fluids before I put a 22 year old car through that "stress" . Guy I bought it from didn't almost drive it all, but to church, so I want it to be a smooth transition for the car ...After everything is changed and tuned up,I might look into the tune and LH WOT module for sure. I am not familiar with Italian tune you speak of but I know LH is pretty cheap tune.

I know I said it few times already, but I really appreciate all the help guys. This will keep me busy for few weeks (since I can only work on my car over the weekends ).

[gsxr]

Pressure bleeding is sooo much faster and easier. You can buy a kit for $50 or so, like the Motive Euro bleeder.

Italian tuneup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_tuneup

[nocfn]

let alone risk the master cylinder rebuild potential. Pressure bleed all the way.

[Alex89]

Haha "Italian tuneup"... I like it, its free.

Ok, I will look into the pressure bleeding...I should probably do it the "right" way and eliminate as much risk as possible. I just didn't feel like spending $50

[nocfn]

Alex - it will pay for itself after the second use. And, FWIW the most expensive car you will ever own is a cheap Mercedes.... especially if you give a rip about it, and I can tell that you have a pride of ownership. It costs a bit more, but its worth it.

[Dario]

Is this a car you got??

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7866

[gsxr]

Is this a car you got??

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7866

Nope, he said 1995 E420 w/ 55kmi, the link above is for a 1993 400E with 56kmi. Almost the same miles though!

[Alex89]

No, I got this one...

20170617_125404.jpg 20170617_125427.jpg 95 BENZ.JPG

[gsxr]

No, I got this one...

Ooooo. That looks like 009, Sapphire Black! Beautiful color. Very rare, at least in USA.

[Dario]

Nope, he said 1995 E420 w/ 55kmi, the link above is for a 1993 400E with 56kmi. Almost the same miles though!

My mistake i saw same mileage and both locations in Florida and assumed lesson learned

[gerryvz]

Basically, it comes down to how much money you want to spend on fluid. As GSXR says, the RedLine D4 is a great fluid, and one that I have been using in a couple of my vehicles. You can comfortably go with a long(er) drain interval with a synthetic fluid.

Other cars, I have used and use the Dex III-compatible Castrol TransMax fluid, which is available at any common auto parts store in gallon jugs and quarts. I have also found this fluid to be just fine, although I would recommend as a safety margin to replace it at a 25,000-mile interval rather than the factory's 30K mile ATF change interval.

Always change the transmission filter and drain the torque converter when doing ATF -- don't just drain the pan alone.

I have not noticed any degradation in performance here in Southeast Texas in using either "dino" (TransMax) or quality Synthetic (RedLine D4) ATFs. The main thing is that they are changed at appropriate intervals.

Cheers,
Gerry

[Alex89]

Yes, I think I will go with D4 and not worry about it for a long time and of course get OEM filter.

Car was actually repainted because his cat scratched the trunk and the roof. Original color was 199. New paint looks pretty good and is metallic so I don't mind it at all.

[Alex89]

So I was changing trans fluid yesterday and everything went smooth but I could not get to the TC screw for the life of me. I tried allen key in so many different ways as well as the hex bit but with the crossover pipe its almost impossible. Tried taking the pipe out but the bolts were soo rusted out as soon as I put some torque on them they rounded...I was so disappointed. I put some PB blaster, heated them too but nothing...

So at the end i only took about a gallon out and put fresh gallon in. Since I dont want to mess with the exhaust I was thinking about draining a gallon again and putting new one in, that ill change about 75% of the fluid...Was thinking about taking it to the exhaust shop so they can just change those bolts and clamps so I can work on it after that, but I am aftaid it will go wrong and will end up being like $500 trans fluid change

[gsxr]

Work on getting the exhaust bolts out. The lower bolts are easy and can be cut off if necessary. The upper ones may require a "rounded bolt head" extractor but should come out without excessive problems. If you can get the upper bolts out, you should be all set. The bottom 'gasket' can be re-used if it breaks. The lower bolts are nothing special but should be used with the factory copper nuts (cheap aftermarket). The upper bolts (to the exhaust manifold) must come from MB.

Buy new ones so you have them ready to install. Make sure to apply anti-seize on the new bolts when installing.

Others have been able to get the converter drain out with the pipe in place (making an unholy mess while draining) so maybe those folks can chime in with tips & tricks...

[Alex89]

Yea I read ppl were able to access the TC screw with the pipe in place but I wasnt, I probably lost 1h trying to do it...I think that maybe a cut 5mm allen key would fit in with the shorter side but I didnt have anything to cut it and it woulds till be questionable...

What do you mean by upper bolts? I need to take them off of exhaust manifold? I know there are 2 literally around the crossover pipe, and there were other 2 kinda close to it holding the exhaust...

This is the one around the crossover pipe...

20170715_152903[785].jpg

Thx for the pic, next time I get to it I will prob change them all than...

[gsxr]

What do you mean by upper bolts? I need to take them off of exhaust manifold? I know there are 2 literally around the crossover pipe, and there were other 2 kinda close to it holding the exhaust...

The crossover pipe must be removed. There is an upper fitting with 2 bolts at the exhaust manifold (hard to see without flashlight, need socket with extensions to access) and another 2 bolts at the lower end, shown in your photo. The ones in your photo are not a problem, just cut them off if seized, replace with new. I've never had a problem with the upper bolts but make sure to use a 6-pt socket of the proper size to avoid rounding the head.

[Alex89]

Ok thx. I will have to look for those upper 2 bolts next time.

[Alex89]

Ok, I really didn't want to mess with those bolts and exhaust so I had some body shop cut short side of 5mm allen key for me so I can fit it between TC and exhaust and I bought long ball end Allen wrench. It worked amazing, didn't struggle at all and no mess at all, although I did have huge pan to drain the fluid. I think I would lose a lot of time if I didn't have cut Allen key to put the bolt back in TC.
Car shifts smoother but nothing drastically better. Also when I unscrewed the TC bolt it popped loud which on my Saab's means that it was never removed before since they advertised trans fluid is never to be changed. So I am not sure it was the same case here but fluid did not look too dirty.

Trans FLuid.jpg

I was looking for coolant drain plugs on the engine block, I saw one right next/behind the starter if I am not mistaking, but there were few others that I though could be the second one. Where are they exactly? Are they on the same side or opposite sides of the engine? I saw pics online but that's with bare engine and it was close up so I cant really figure it out.

Thx

[jhodg5ck]

smoother shifts are not always a Good thing. I like a nice Positive shift out of a .3 FWIW. Get a full set of those ball end allens...they're Quite handy.

RE: coolant drain plugs, they are 6mm pointed down vertically in identical positions left to right. About mid way in the block front to back..maybe with a slight leaning towards the front. When you Do find them, get the 6mm FIRMLY seated with a few solid smacks with a steel hammer. Don't worry, you won't hurt it. Often they have never been out and can be a might bit reluctant. A touch of heat in the block never hurt either..but not too hot cause hot coolant on yer face/down your arm/back etc kinda sucks.

on that shifting thing, you might turn the modulator up just a hair.

jono

[Alex89]

So you are saying there is one drain plug on each side of the block (Passenger side and the driver side)?

Is it these 2? And its 6m Allen wrench/key, right?

20170722_124747.jpg20170722_124538.jpg


I don't know anything about that modulator. I just heard it can be adjusted and it affects shifting but I got to do some research on it ...But I will check it out. My shifting has a slight kick at times, that's it.

[gsxr]

So you are saying there is one drain plug on each side of the block (Passenger side and the driver side)?

Is it these 2? And its 6m Allen wrench/key, right?

Yep, those are the drains. You are lucky and have a late block which allows connecting a hose to the fitting for draining without any mess.

Use 3/8 extensions with a swivel / U-joint and a straight (not ball-end) 6mm driver and the drains should pop loose. Once loose, attach the hose and twist to open the drain. You'll get a few quarts total out of the block, mostly from the first side, less from the second side. If the block is cold you can open both and run some water into the upper radiator hose to flush out the block. Don't forget to tighten both drains (snug, not gorilla) before adding a 50/50 mix of G-05... and remember to fill the block via the upper radiator hose as much as possible before filling at the plastic reservoir.

[Alex89]

Ok perfect. I will flush the block through the upper radiator hose for sure once both drains are open. Coolant flush or PS flush will be next on the list.

I always flushed coolant by taking as much coolant as I can, adding distilled water and idling car until thermostat opens, than flushing it and repeating until clear water starts coming out. Than I would add 1/2 antifreeze and rest distilled water. Should I do it here too, just to be sure I have right mixture?

I see capacity is really not 14l or whatever manual says, but more likely ~12l...

Also I have 2qt of ATF D4 left, so if anyone is interested let me know, I dont mind donating it to you guys.

[gsxr]

I always flushed coolant by taking as much coolant as I can, adding distilled water and idling car until thermostat opens, than flushing it and repeating until clear water starts coming out.

Since you can drain the radiator and block, and can run a garden hose through both (when cold!), the only place for old coolant to hide is the heater core. If you really want to flush that out you could fill the system with water and run the heater on max for a bit, then let it all cool and flush again. I use compressed air into the pipe by the brake booster to push some of the old coolant out of the heater core to avoid the extra couple hours of filling / flushing / cooling down.

Than I would add 1/2 antifreeze and rest distilled water. Should I do it here too, just to be sure I have right mixture?

Pre-mix! Since the system capacity is unknown, the best and safest method is to pre-mix to whatever percentage you plan to use, and pour that in directly. In Florida you could probably get away with less than 50/50 if you never drive to the snow belt.

[Alex89]

I would really like to flush the whole system. It might sound silly but maybe I will flush it once with 50/50 (It will be more expensive but I would feel much better).I don't plan on driving this car anywhere near snow but I will stick wit 50/50 just in case.

Thx again!

[FalconOps]

Redline D4 ATF in my '93 400E transmission.

[Alex89]

Yea that's what I used and it shifts great now except when cold but I almost never drive it before it warms up...
I changed all the fluids and filters now. Next is harnesses but the upper one looks excellent so I will wait until I find one with great price. I have LH WOT enrichment module and I haven't put it in yet, not sure why...will do that soon too.

So can the locking tabs on the injector plugs (on a harness) be swapped from the original harness to updated one?
Also, does the transmission suppose to light up the gear letters to tell me which gear I am in, bc its all the same. I read online I can change some light bulb but does anyone know which kind of a light bulb, before I start the whole process?

Thx!

[gsxr]

Also, does the transmission suppose to light up the gear letters to tell me which gear I am in, bc its all the same. I read online I can change some light bulb but does anyone know which kind of a light bulb, before I start the whole process?

On all 124 chassis except the E500E, the gear shift indicator is backlit when the parking lights / headlights are on, but there is no position indicator. If your light is working in the 400E/E420, it's fine.

A different shifter mechanism was used the E500E only (124.036) which has bulb with light pipe, and this lights up the specific gear position. It's not an easy retrofit to other 124's, IIRC.

[gerryvz]

As Dave mentioned, earlier/pedestrian models (124, 126, etc.) used a system whereby all of the transmission gear indicator letters were lit up equally at the same time, and there was no visual indicator of what gear the car was in other than the lever shaft being NEXT TO a particular letter.

The 500E/E500 (1991-1994 model years) and the W463 (starting 1994 model year and going through 1996) were the only vehicles of that era that I know where the individual letter is lit up as a visual indicator of the specific gear the transmission was in.

On a 400E/E420, it's going to have the "all lit up equally" gear letter indicator set-up. My 1989 560SEC has the exact same setup.

In both cases (bright gear letter indicator and "all the same light" indicator), there is a low-wattage lamp bulb (it very rarely goes out) that can be replaced, if needed.

Cheers,
Gerry

[Alex89]

Oooh ok. I thought there is a bulb indicator that will indicate what gear I am in. All of mine are lit perfectly so no need do any replacements down there... Thank you all!

Another question ...You guys are so helpful I got to take advantage of it . What controls the "Auto" function on the AC console? Is it the cabin temp sensor above where the sunroof buttons are? Whenever I set "Auto" its is always little slower than "High" option...But it never goes down...

[gerryvz]

Another question ...You guys are so helpful I got to take advantage of it . What controls the "Auto" function on the AC console? Is it the cabin temp sensor above where the sunroof buttons are? Whenever I set "Auto" its is always little slower than "High" option...But it never goes down...

There are a number of inputs to the 'AUTO' mode for the automatic climate control system. One of them is the interior temp as read by the cabin temp sensor, as you mention. However, there is logic inside of the ACC pushbutton control unit that controls things. Other inputs obviously include the temperature setting on the temp wheel, the ambient temperature (if not set on "recirculate" mode), and the mode setting button pushed. Another input is the evaporator temp sensor, I believe.

The HIGH fan setting will always push maximum air volume, and the LOW fan setting will push minimum air volume. The AUTO setting has some variance (mainly depending on the temperature setting thumb-wheel -- AUTO fan speed will slow down when warmer temps are selected in the upper part of the white and red temp zones), and it is always between the two, but from my experience over many years is perhaps about 10-20% less air volume than HIGH is.

For Southern climes with high heat and humidity, it's best to always have the MODE push-button in the "Normal" (middle button) setting, and have the fan on AUTO (or HIGH if super hot out).

If you rotate the temp thumbwheel to the coldest setting (the "dot"), you will feel a small "click" at the lowest part of the temp setting. This click puts the entire ACC system in "recirculate" mode -- same as hitting the recirculate button. Note that the recirculate button turns off to normal circulation mode after a set time; it is designed for rapid cool-down of the car's interior before reverting to allowing cooling of outside/ambient air.

If you slightly move the thumbwheel upward (off the click) then it will be max A/C with non-recirculate mode, unless as above you've hit the "recirculate" mode for temporary recirc of cabin air.

My biggest complaint has always been that the HIGH and LOW fan speeds are too fixed, and are not optimal. AUTO is always too high. The ACC system has always lacked in terms of having the proper logic to set just the RIGHT fan speed itself, and of course you can't set it manually. It's sort of a Henry Ford "you can have any color you want as long as it's black") deal -- "You can have any fan speed you want as long as it's too high or too low"). The four-speed manually adjusted fan-speed in my 1995 G-wagen is a real God-send......

I hope all of this makes sense. GSXR will very likely tell me I'm all wrong, so please take the above with a large grain of salt.....I did my best though.

[Alex89]

Yes it makes sense and I learned few things I didn't know...as long as its not wrong haha....

Mine "AUTO" is always like you said 10%-20% lower than HIGH but it never changes regardless of where the wheel is, I tried it at the lowest and highest and the middle...

That's why I suspected the cabin temp sensor...My ambient temp display wasn't working but I changed the display so now it works (90% of the time) but its inaccurate and I don't think that has anything to do with the AC inside the car, or does it?
I will try all that but with the "recirculate" mode ON and see what happens.



And I totally agree, its always too low or too high, but the AC system is pretty good for 95' in my opinion...

[gerryvz]

There is a HOW-TO on testing the cabin temp sensor. Often the fan that sucks in the air over the sensor goes inop, and it makes the ACC system go haywire. The fan is located behind the passenger side airbag just behind/below the dashboard air vent. These fans often die from old age and use. They are no longer very cheap to buy, but you can still get them. Another option would be to get a used one from a wrecking yard.....

HOW-TO link located here: HOW-TO: Replacing 500E/E500 climate control air sampler ("asipirator") motor