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Thread: CLK LM engine confusion

  1. #1
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    CLK LM engine confusion

    Hello,

    I recently saw an entry list program cover of 1998 Le Mans:

    http://www.racingsportscars.com/cove...998-06-07e.jpg

    it shows the CLK LM has a 6000cc NA engine (A stands for atmospheric I believe), but the rest of the website shows that the CLK LM engine displacement is 4989cc

    These two pages also say CLK LM has 5 liter v8 but one of them says it is designated as GT108B revised from the Sauber C9/C11's M119HL and the displacement is 4986cc:

    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/spec/...nz-CLK-LM.html
    http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSi...14&oid=9919089

    so which one is correct? I highly doubt CLK LM used the 6L to race, maybe there was something else went on? Does anyone know about this?
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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    I'm not sure which motor was used in what race.... MB had 2 M119 race engines. The turbo'd 5.0 liter and an aspirated 6.0 liter. I think the 5.0 liter set the Nuremberg track record.

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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    I'm not sure which motor was used in what race.... MB had 2 M119 race engines. The turbo'd 5.0 liter and an aspirated 6.0 liter. I think the 5.0 liter set the Nuremberg track record.
    I dont think there exists a 6L racing M119, or they probably never raced it.

    First, if you see the CLK LM section on the third website I provided(which is MB official Daimler) the displacement the gave is 4986cc. I saw the official results of 1998 Le Mans it showed 4989cc, but i never see a result showed 6000cc, only the entry list program cover

    Second, this website says CLR has the 5.7L M119 enlarged from the previous CLK LM 5L M119. If what it says is true, then 6L racing M119 will conflict

    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/txt/4...-Benz-CLR.html

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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    It looks like the program sheet you posted is incorrect on the engine displacement for the CLK-LM in 1998. It seems they just posted bad info and perhaps used the specs from the CLK-GTR which was the basis for the CLK-LM and was raced in the FIA GT series the same year.

    For clarification, there are 3 version of this fine racecar: the CLK-GTR, CLK-LM and CLR.

    The CLK-GTR was used only in the 1997 and 1998 FIA GT series and won both driver's and constructors' championships both years. It had a naturally aspirated 6.0l M120 V-12 engine.

    The CLK-LM was raced only in the 1998 24 hr of LeMans and had a naturally aspirated 5.0l M119 V-8 highly modified and renamed a GT108B as the block was completely different due to integral structural gussets for the chassis/rear suspension and dry sump system. The CLK-LM was modified from the CLK-GTR with different front fenders to improved aero, and the V-12 was changed to the V-8 because of weight and durability. The engine had a massive inlet resitrictor to reduce power output to comply with the LeMans class rules and so the V-12 was considered overkill. The V-8 offered an advantage of less weight over the V-12 so they could use weight ballast elsewhere in the chassis for improved chassis balance. Unfortunately the V-8 suffered from excessive vibration and was not as reliable as the smooth V-12 and both cars entered were retired with engine failure early in the race (I don't remember exactly but it was less than 6 hours).

    The CLR was raced only in the 1999 24 hr of LeMans and had a naturally aspirated 5.7l M119/GT108C V-8 engine. The engine is the same at the CLK-LM but with a larger displacement due to smaller inlet restrictors that were a rule change for 1999. The additional stroke also helped with vibration to improve engine reliability. The CLR was the famous 'flipper' that flipped 3 different times during qualifying, practice and finally in the race too, so Mercedes pulled the remaining car from the race at around the 6-hour mark if I remember correctly. Mercedes/AMG dropped the GT program entirely after the trouble with the CLR and didn't participate again until the SLS-GT3 customer program started in 2011.

    Sorry to geek out with the info here, but I've been a huge fan of these cars for years. For the record, I don't know of any 6.0l M119 race engines either, as posted above.
    Last edited by SG-Motorsports; 07-13-2017 at 01:12 AM.

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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    I agree w/SG on the V12. I to was a nut about these cars and I try to watch LeMans every year for as long as I remember as far back as the Speed Channel.

    I know the V12 was the first version raced at LeMans and was dropped in favor of the V8 the following year. I wasn't into the specs at the time so I will let others speak to that.

    I got to see what I believe we're two CLK-GTRs race at Laguna Seca. I don't remember if it was 97 or 98. I believe that Bernt Schneider was lead driver in one car and Claus Ludwig the other car. They were awesome to watch but really had no competition to speak of. If I remember correctly Schneider's car broke down and Ludwig won the race. It was my one and only time I went to Laguna Seca. I have the race program somewhere but probably couldn't find it in a million years.
    Last edited by TerryA; 07-13-2017 at 06:28 AM.
    Terry

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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    The CLR was raced only in the 1999 24 hr of LeMans and had a naturally aspirated 5.7l M119/GT108C V-8 engine. The engine is the same at the CLK-LM but with a larger displacement due to smaller inlet restrictors that were a rule change for 1999. The additional stroke also helped with vibration to improve engine reliability.
    What do you know? I have been saying for years and years, do a stroker M119! A slight overbore an you have the 5.7 allready.
    No messing about with 100mm+ Just get the 97mm pistons w correct comp. height.....
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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    Stroker crank from an M117 5.6L.......

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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Stroker crank from an M117 5.6L.......
    ... and modified rods, and different pistons, and modifications to the block, and let's not forget modifications to the crank itself.

    Probably require at least two weekends under the hood in your garage. Maybe three.


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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    ... and modified rods, and different pistons, and modifications to the block, and let's not forget modifications to the crank itself.

    Probably require at least two weekends under the hood in your garage. Maybe three.

    I know of such a motor...but it's in need of a full rebuild.
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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    I found this thread when I was searching for information about why the CLK-LM sounded totally different at Le Mans in 1998 than it did in all the FIA-GT races it participated in after Le Mans.
    So I registered here to correct some stuff that was written just because I'm a huge fan of these cars and non-current Mercedes-Benz models in general.

    So here we go:
    First of all they were all normally aspirated!

    CLK-GTR has a V12 engine and was raced by the works team in the 1997 FIA-GT Championship, which did not include the 24 Hours of Le Mans and the works team did not race at Le Mans that year.
    The CLK-GTR was also raced by the works team in the 1998 FIA-GT Championship rounds that took place before that years 24 Hours of Le Mans plus two CLK-GTR were raced for the whole 1998 FIA-GT Championship season, which again did not include Le Mans, by Persson Motorsport. The works team abondoned the CLK-GTR after the opening rounds of the FIA GT Championship and had developed the CLK-LM as the successor. Only the works team took part in the 1998 24 Hours of Le Mans and debuted the CLK-LM there. It had a V8 engine and ABS (anti lock braking). At Le Mans it had the rumbling sound typical for an American V8.

    After Le Mans, where both cars failed to finish, the cars got modified. The ABS was removed because in contrast to the ACO rulebook it was forbidden in the FIA rules. Also the engine must've been altered, because in all the FIA-GT races the rumbling sound is gone and instead it sounds like a high revving V8, to me somewhere between a current DTM V8 and an early 90s Ford/Cosworth V8. I do not know though, why the engine was changed that way and what the displacement numbers were at and after Le Mans. So if anybody has more info about the changes that were made I'd be glad to know.

    CLK-GTR and CLK-LM were both built to GT1-regulations while the 1999 successor called CLR was a LMGTP-class car. It was paddle shifted and also had a N/A V8 but only raced at that years Le Mans. The planned or at least rumored participation in the ALMS wasn't realized after the desaster that happened at Le Mans, which was sad but seems to have been the right decision considering the Porsche 911 GT1 '98, that had absolutely no aerodynamic trouble at Le Mans had flipped at the ALMS's Petit Le Mans race at Road Atlanta the year before.

    So the V12 CLK-GTR never competed at Le Mans, but the V8 CLK-LM competed in both Le Mans and FIA-GT.

    @TerryA: FIA-GT came to Laguna Seca in 1997 and 1998, so if you remember seeing any blue Mercedes cars you were there in 1998 and therefor saw both the CLK-GTR (blue) and CLK-LM (silver). In 1997 all Mercedes cars that competed there were silver CLK-GTRs and the famous Greg Moore was brought in as a driver since he also raced a Mercedes engine in CART.

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    Re: CLK LM engine confusion

    Villeneuve,

    Thanks for the update. Now I'm going to have to go out and look for that race program. It seems to me both cars I saw were the same silver color, only difference being one had yellow mirror pods the other red.
    Terry

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