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Thread: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

  1. #1

    FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    For sale is a set of M119 aluminum oilers tubes, from what I believe were made by the first molds.

    If you look at the shape of the tube, it is "blockier" than the later aluminum oiler tubes.

    The part number is the same as the later ones:
    Part No: 119 187 00 87

    The second picture compares the oilers from two different molds.
    The oiler on the right is the "blockier" one.

    I don't see an advantage or disadvantage.
    I personally would not install these, rather, I would keep these as a collector item.

    $215 shipped to CONUS
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I would be very hesitant to install these on a 500E. The interior oil passages of these tubes from the "first molds" move the oil at strict right angles, which reduces the oil flow speed, and thus efficiency, and ultimately their ability to oil the cams effectively under high-performance conditions. They are probably OK for a 400E/E420, or a W140 with M119 engine, however.

    It's probable that these used better quality aluminum, too, that was created in the late 1980s up to the 1990-1991 era when MB "cost no object" engineering still ruled the company's decisions. 1992 was the year when things started changing, and materials started getting cheaper (think of the rubber used in the mirror boots from 1992-onward cars vs. 1986-1991 mirror boots).

    It would be good to create a glass display showing the various tubes used in the M119 with the generations of molds, including the plastic tubes as well as the aftermarket tubes. It would be a nice display for the 500E aficionado's shop wall.

    Stevester, I think $215 for this set is too low -- $300-350 is more the price, given their extreme rarity.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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  4. #3

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    If they don't sell, I will probably take your advise and create a display, great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    ...
    It would be good to create a glass display showing the various tubes used in the M119 with the generations of molds, including the plastic tubes as well as the aftermarket tubes. It would be a nice display for the 500E aficionado's shop wall.

    Stevester, I think $215 for this set is too low -- $300-350 is more the price, given their extreme rarity.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Then again, if I had the best 500E in the world, I mean, like, one with the original Porsche factory paint runs in the rear of the body, these would probably be the perfect complement if it did not already have them...
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I'm hoping that GSXR can tell us the switchover point (chassis number) as to when MB changed over from the "First Generation Mold" cam oiler tubes to the "Second Generation Mold" rounded tubes. Probably some time in late 1991, but I'm not sure.

  8. #6

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    You are probably pretty close, but my bet would be mid 1991.
    And my "educated" guess would be that they were never originally installed in a .036.
    But someone with a 1991 .036 could prove me wrong.
    All it would take is to take a peek thru the passenger side valve cover of a 1991 .036.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    I'm hoping that GSXR can tell us the switchover point (chassis number) as to when MB changed over from the "First Generation Mold" cam oiler tubes to the "Second Generation Mold" rounded tubes. Probably some time in late 1991, but I'm not sure.
    Last edited by Stevester 500E; 07-15-2017 at 03:42 PM.

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Never seen these before. Maybe they were from the 119.960!


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  11. #8

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I am not too sure about this. I can take your word, and/or slice one in half.
    Of course I would slice a plastic one and a later mold aluminum one too.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    ... "first molds" move the oil at strict right angles...

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    It is very possible that only a very limited number of these sets were created and installed on cars (I'm thinking less than 25 sets), which would make them exceedingly rare, and probably worthy of $1,000+ per set if that were the case.

    Sort of a parallel with the famous "inverted Jenny" airmail stamps from 1918, which are exceedingly rare and valuable today.

    US_Airmail_inverted_Jenny_24c_1918_issue.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_Jenny

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I am not too sure about this. I can take your word, and/or slice one in half.
    Of course I would slice a plastic one and a later mold aluminum one too.
    I wouldn't break up the set. A full sheet of inverted Jennys is worth a lot more than a single...


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  16. #11

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    My guess is that the oil passage ways are at the same angles as the later tubes.
    I would venture to guess that the only difference was the shape on the outside, reducing the amount of aluminum by a fraction, whilst enabling easier mold release.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I wouldn't break up the set. A full sheet of inverted Jennys is worth a lot more than a single...


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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Perhaps an oil or liquid pressure & volume test is in order for the Gen 1 metal, Gen 2 metal, plastic and aftermarket tubes.

    The plastic tubes are the most rounded, and plastic has less surface friction than metal, so it's a fairly safe assumption that the plastic tubes probably flow the oil most efficiently. Perhaps that is why MB went to that design/material.




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    Last edited by Klink; 07-15-2017 at 09:33 PM.

  19. #13

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Pics or it's pure speculation.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    I would be very hesitant to install these on a 500E. The interior oil passages of these tubes from the "first molds" move the oil at strict right angles, .....

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    Pics or it's pure speculation.
    Weren't you cutting each model/generation for the display you said you would make for a 500E owner's garage?

    IMG_7883.JPG

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    trading-places1.jpg I was thinking Frozen Orange Juice
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    This set of one-off tubes hasn't sold yet?


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  26. #17

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    These oiler tubes are still for sale and will come with new O-rings.

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Can I purchase one of them to make a shop-wall display? Would you break up the set?


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  29. #19

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    If I break up the set, which I probably will, I will give you one.
    Cheers.

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I've only ever seen these once, and it wasn't a full set. The car I pulled them from had a handful mixed in with the later style metal tubes. Not sure if some were replaced later in the car's life, or if the car was built during a transitional phase from one style to another. Could it be they were functionally the same and were used interchangeably from the same parts bins?

    ???
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    If I break up the set, which I probably will, I will give you one.
    Cheers.
    I thought the first one was $215 delivered, and the buyer gets the other fifteen free?


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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    would you like that order with fries or O-Rings
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I thought the price was $1000 for the set (In display cabinet) OR $215 ea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E
    Well Gerry, Uber-rare oiler tubes might increase a cars value by $1000 or so.
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  37. #24

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    No, the price has remained $225.
    New O-rings were added after I realized that someone might want to install these.
    If someone would rather have French fries than O-Rings, I can make that happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I thought the first one was $215 delivered, and the buyer gets the other fifteen free?


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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    No, the price has remained $225.
    New O-rings were added after I realized that someone might want to install these.
    If someone would rather have French fries than O-Rings, I can make that happen.
    OK, so wait a minute....

    First it was $215 delivered.

    Then it was $1,000.

    Now it's $225 with o-rings.

    But yet, I get one free for display purposes. I do appreciate that.

    When I create the display and sell it, I will give you a cut of the final price I receive for the display.

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by J-Sauce View Post
    I've only ever seen these once, and it wasn't a full set. The car I pulled them from had a handful mixed in with the later style metal tubes. Not sure if some were replaced later in the car's life, or if the car was built during a transitional phase from one style to another. Could it be they were functionally the same and were used interchangeably from the same parts bins?

    ???
    Are you saying that Stevester's tubes aren't one-off, prototype models that are the only set known to exist in the wild?

  41. #27

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I think it is thought that there are about 25 sets out there, but I am not sure.......
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Are you saying that Stevester's tubes aren't one-off, prototype models that are the only set known to exist in the wild?

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I think it is thought that there are about 25 sets out there, but I am not sure.......
    I sense an "only 12 Limited E60's" discussion a'brewin.


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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I think it is thought that there are about 25 sets out there, but I am not sure.......
    I wasn't previous aware of that, but I'll start a Wiki entry on cam oiler tubes tonight and document the rarity of the early production tubes.

    To help with this, I'd appreciate a few close-up, detailed photos of the early tubes, from several angles, along with some side by sides with the "pedestrian" aluminum tubes that the majority of us have been saddled with, if you have some available for comparison.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Cool Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    In all due respect, should we not, send a thought of Comfort, to all of us who, fully or patially run plastic tubes; it's not, every day or trip
    a tube of that variety break but beware and keep your fingers crossed AND don't cry Wolf time and time again, gets me worried, too///
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    It would be a nice gesture for Stevester to perhaps donate his set of prototype tubes to you Roger, simply because of the contributions you have made to this site.

    Not to mention that you are one of the very few members who has your own smiley...


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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Yes to that, I am almost thinking of, really thinking of buying me a1991 500se motor, just for the sake of, alu tubes, closed deck, some other parts
    for coming convertions, the $900 may be the hurdle.....
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    Yes to that, I am almost thinking of, really thinking of buying me a1991 500se motor, just for the sake of, alu tubes, closed deck,
    If you bought one of these, there's a good chance you could get one of the other 25 sets of the prototype (squared) tubes....

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Hmm, interesting, how about them from the 119 960 are they like that or differ more?
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  53. #35

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    I wasn't previous aware of that, but I'll start a Wiki entry on cam oiler tubes tonight and document the rarity of the early production tubes.

    To help with this, I'd appreciate a few close-up, detailed photos of the early tubes, from several angles, along with some side by sides with the "pedestrian" aluminum tubes that the majority of us have been saddled with, if you have some available for comparison.

    Cheers,
    Gerry
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  55. #36

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    On the side by side photos the blockier gen I oiler tube is on the right and the softer radius'd gen II oiler tube is on the left.

    On the stacked oiler photos, the blockier gen I oiler tube is on the bottom and the softer radius'd gen II oiler tube is on the top.

    On the single oiler tube photos, well, I hope you can tell which is gen I and which is gen II.

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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    Hmm, interesting, how about them from the 119 960 are they like that or differ more?
    Roger,

    I wasn't going to mention this, but since you brought up the 119.96X series of engines (CIS-E injected), it sort of forces me to enter another variable into this discussion.

    I apologize in advance if this variable offends you (Jag ber om ursäkt för min möjliga förolämpning)....

    However, since the M119.96X engine is mentioned, we must also (and with MUCH reluctance on my part) discuss the possibility of the AMG Japan-specific M117/9 hybrid engine, which also employed a four-valve cylinder head. This also was a very early example using the M119 DOHC four-valve heads, and it is very, very possible that these "first-generation" cam oiler tubes also were used with these very very rare motors.

    So, perhaps more investigation is needed. I doubt AMG would have used any but the very best parts for these M117/9 engines.

    Cheers,
    Gerry




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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Thanks for this nice overwieuv, I know the M119 960 differs too much in comparison to its successor Gen2 M119 9xx I am happy
    the crankshaft do fit from the M117 to the end of history. Yes I stay away from the 960's....

    Anyhow this IS an, should we say EPIC issue, allthough we seldom see them, often hear, if they are not present, no?
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  59. #39

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I agree with Gerry, I am sure that AMG used the gen I "inverted Benny's" oiler tubes.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    So, perhaps more investigation is needed. I doubt AMG would have used any but the very best parts for these M117/9 engines.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

  60. #40

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Bump.
    The set of "Inverted Benny's" is still for sale

  61. #41

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Gerry,
    They are not one-offs. I know of at least 32 individual gen I oiler tubes to be in existence.
    Don't ask me how I know...
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Are you saying that Stevester's tubes aren't one-off, prototype models that are the only set known to exist in the wild?

  62. #42

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    These really are beautiful and breath-taking.
    I really wish I could talk to the decision maker at MB who decided to create a gen II version.
    I am not too interested in talking to the guy who decided to go with the plastic ones, although it's probably the same guy who decide to go plastic on us.....

    You really have to see these in person to really appreciate them. The pics don't do them justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    Ok.
    Last edited by Stevester 500E; 08-14-2017 at 10:52 PM.

  63. #43

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    I would start the discussion, but it is a for sale thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I sense an "only 12 Limited E60's" discussion a'brewin.


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    Cool Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I would start the discussion, but it is a for sale thread.

    Yes to that, let's start a rally and a Group Buy
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    I think it is thought that there are about 25 sets out there, but I am not sure.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    Gerry,
    They are not one-offs. I know of at least 32 individual gen I oiler tubes to be in existence.
    Don't ask me how I know...
    There are some mixed messages here but it appears that these tubes are very rare indeed with a confirmed minimum 2 sets (Or 16 Sets?) and Maximum 25 sets. May I ask your source of this information Stevester?

    I can only hazard a guess at how many m119 Engines Mercedes produced but I would think the number could be 100,000+!?
    If MB could verify these Gen 1 Tube numbers / authenticity - I think you are vastly underselling them at $215.
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  68. #46

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    J-Sauce has seen a handle full and I have seen 2 complete sets of these oiler tubes, so I would say they are fairly rare.
    I think GSXR has seen more motors that I have, and he said he hasn't seen a set.
    I really couldn't give a number of sets made.
    I still believe the sole reason for MB designing and producing gen II aluminum oiler tubes was to permit parts to release from the mold easily.
    Last edited by Stevester 500E; 08-15-2017 at 01:27 AM.

  69. #47
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by JC220 View Post
    There are some mixed messages here but it appears that these tubes are very rare indeed with a confirmed minimum 2 sets (Or 16 Sets?) and Maximum 25 sets. May I ask your source of this information Stevester?

    I can only hazard a guess at how many m119 Engines Mercedes produced but I would think the number could be 100,000+!?
    If MB could verify these Gen 1 Tube numbers / authenticity - I think you are vastly underselling them at $215.
    The fact that these "special" museum-piece tubes haven't sold yet clearly shows that people on this forum don't "get" their rarity, heritage & artfulness -- not to mention their importance in the history of Mercedes-Benz powerplant engineering & their functionality.

    Too bad really --

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  71. #48
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Not meaning to "hijack" the thread in anyways...but i just had to let you know what i found..IF it hasnt been mentioned yet in any of the top comments(did not get to read all of them properly)BUT...these oiler tubes are from the first m119 engine..with the CIS system.I just recently saw an old "Mercedes Sales Training" video ,,and they showed the "new" m119 engine,,,of the first version r129 500sl...and you could clearly see the "boxier" oile tubes

    Have a look at this LOVELY video..AT 1hour 04min 04 seconds..

    Last edited by lowman; 08-15-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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  73. #49
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Quote Originally Posted by lowman View Post
    these oiler tubes are from the first m119 engine..with the CIS system.I just recently saw an old "Mercedes Sales Training" video ,,and they showed the "new" m119 engine,,,of the first version r129 500sl...and you could clearly see the "boxier" oile tubes
    Uh-oh. That means they could be period-incorrect for a 500E!



    EDIT: Screen shot added from lowman's video.
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    FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Ok, so they are 129 specific tubes. Not correct parts for the .036. That brings the value back down to earth, I'd say.

  76. #51
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    post edited...with video
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Well I didn’t see that one coming. And there I thought we had pretty much confirmed beyond any doubt that these WERE indeed, one of 2 – 25 prototype sets of holy grail jebus tubes the likes of which even GSXR has not encountered in person

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  80. #53
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    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    It's good that the mystery is finally solved, thanks to our dear Lowman. I've half a mind to buy the next 1991 500SL that I see, to get my hands on a set of these "rocking-horse-poo" cam oiler tubes for my parts collection.

    Will we see a price adjustment here?

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  82. #54

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    They are period correct only if you have an early AMG 500E.


    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Uh-oh. That means they could be period-incorrect for a 500E!



    EDIT: Screen shot added from lowman's video.

  83. #55

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    A 1991 M119 isn't going to produce rocking horse poo....sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    It's good that the mystery is finally solved, thanks to our dear Lowman. I've half a mind to buy the next 1991 500SL that I see, to get my hands on a set of these "rocking-horse-poo" cam oiler tubes for my parts collection.

    Will we see a price adjustment here?

  84. #56

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    Should we slice one in half to close the case and thread?

  85. #57

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    ummmm....I don't know the exact definition of period correct, but I can verify for sure that gen I and gen II share the same exact part number......
    Gen I fan Gen II fan

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Uh-oh. That means they could be period-incorrect for a 500E!



    EDIT: Screen shot added from lowman's video.
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    Last edited by Stevester 500E; 08-16-2017 at 08:46 PM.

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  87. #58

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    ...and the car that J-Sauce saw a mixture of gen I and gen II oilers....half period correct, half incorrect?.....

  88. #59

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    period correct.
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    Last edited by Stevester 500E; 08-15-2017 at 10:50 PM.

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  90. #60

    Re: FS: Original Mold M119 aluminum oiler tubes - future collector item

    In my opinion MB was incorrect in using the same part number on a part that was re-designed to the point where there is a distinguishable difference.
    And if Gerry is correct that the gen I oiler tubes have a strict right angle and should not be installed on a 500e, then they really made a big big mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevester 500E View Post
    ummmm....I don't know the exact definition of period correct, but I can verify for sure that gen I and gen II share the same exact part number......

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