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Thread: 400E Hard Shift

  1. #1

    400E Hard Shift

    All of a sudden the 400E started with hard shifting. It bangs harsh when shifting. I was driving very softly ...probably makes it even worse.
    Maybe the vacuum line from modulator is disconnected (no vacuum) or the modulator at transmission died?

    Vacuum line to tranny modulator: is this line a black vacuum line that starts at the driver side behind the fire wall from a switch over valve?

    How can it tested best?

    Thanks, Martin

  2. #2
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Yes, you need to check the vacuum line from the back of the intake manifold, to the vacuum modulator.

    NORMALLY, this line is not colored black, unless a previous owner/mechanic replaced it. Typically this line is clear/white. You'll need to trace it and see what's going on.

    Dave M.
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  3. #3

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks Dave,
    Here are a few pictures of the vacuum line I believe is going down to the transmission (but not 100% sure).
    This line is testing good- it holds vacuum.
    However with the engine running there is no vacuum at this line from the engine side. Can you confirm that I am looking at the correct line to the modulator?

    Martin
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin, nope, that is the wrong line. The one in your photo is for the cold upshift delay and that goes to the passenger side of the transmission.

    The line you are looking for starts at the rear of the intake manifold (top/center-ish) and goes to the vac modulator on the driver side of the transmission.


  5. #5

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Dave,

    I have trouble with the forum posting. Pictures seems to crash the forum, at least these posts do not show up.

    So I found one port at the rear of the manifold...with a line going down. Location is a bit on the right side. This line downstream draws vacuum (20 inHg at idle). This means if this is the line the modulator sees vacuum.

    PICT0588.JPG PICT0587.JPG

  6. #6
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Yes, that is the correct port (photos in post above). Next check is the rubber fitting at the modulator itself. If the plumbing is all ok, the modulator itself COULD be at fault.

    Was any work done on the car just before this happened, or did the problem start out of the clear blue?


  7. #7

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks, no work was done on the car. The problem started literally out of the blue.
    I guess I 'd need a new modulator.
    I think that can be installed without draining the AFT?
    I heard that there are new style/upgraded modulators for the 722/4 transmissions. Do you know about it?

    Martin

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by werminghausen View Post
    I have trouble with the forum posting. Pictures seems to crash the forum, at least these posts do not show up.
    Photo uploading does not crash the forum. This forum has extremely large (both pixel and memory size) settings for photo/picture dimensions -- MUCH larger than other forums have. I believe you can upload photos of up to 2,500x2,500 pixels, and up to 2+ MB of file size. These are very generous restrictions.

    Large pixel-size photos that are not resized will not be accepted by the forum. Typically, these are caused by cell-phone and high-end digital camera photos that a member doesn't resize to a proper level before they are attempted to be uploaded.

    You can use regular Windows and Mac image tools such as "Paint" and other free programs to resize photos, or change settings on the phone/camera so that images comply with typcial file size limits.

    Thanks
    Gerry

  9. #9
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by werminghausen View Post
    I think that can be installed without draining the AFT?
    I heard that there are new style/upgraded modulators for the 722/4 transmissions. Do you know about it?
    I'd double-check before changing it, as the R&R is not fun in the cramped space under the car, and it's not easy to get the new modulator in & out without any dirt/debris falling into the hole. Clean the area VERY well if you do this, including whacking at the trans tunnel insulation which tends to create dust when it's touched.

    Anyway: The "new" style modulator has a plastic cap that is not intended to be removed, but allows an external adjustment of 1/2 turn. Both old and new style modulators are still available, AFAIK. And I'm not sure if the new style offers any significant advantage. The plunger behind the modulator must be changed if you swap types. After installing you'll probably need to dial it in via trial & error, but if the trans & fluid are in good shape it should be close out of the box.

    BTW - I agree with the photo upload problem, vBulletin should provide a useful error message rather than just turning the upload screen white and acting like it froze or crashed. Never fear, Gerry is here, and there are plans to switch to Xenforo instead (which, hopefully, will have better error handling for uploads).


  10. #10

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Dave,

    If the applied vacuum at the modulator line is held... then the moduator seems to work?
    The reading for vacuum at the line was 20 inHg.... don't know but might be okay. So I am confused a bit because I don't know what can be wrong with the modulator
    I could check and adjust modulator pressure (with this T-bar handle) at idle (don't know the set pressure) but unclear why that pressure might have dropped all of a sudden.
    Only explanation would be that the plunger collapsed. Can such thing happen? Would I see this in modulator pressure reading?
    I think I have the banjo, lines and pressure gauge to do the pressure reading at the modulator.

    Martin
    Last edited by werminghausen; 2 Weeks Ago at 04:30 PM.

  11. #11

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    I crawled under the car and the transmission is a 3 speed 722.354 Model W4A040. It happens that this is the same transmission model as in my 300SDL and I have a (used) modulator here for the Diesel. It should probably fit. It is the updated model with the shorter plunger.
    Does anyone know what the Modulator pressure is of this transmission?

    What I could do is changing the modulator...but It would be wise to adjust the pressure roughly... so I am in need of the modulator pressure.


    Best, Martin

  12. #12

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    The modulator I have in hands seems to be in good shape. It is the updated version. I might have exchanged one at the 300SDL and kept the old one..it looks okay and o-rings are fine (300SDL has a 722.321 with 3.2 bar modulation pressure at idle...no vacuum attached.)
    The part number is 126 270 57 79. Does anyone know if this modulator could work in the 722.354 of the 400E?
    Still would need the modulation pressure.

    Martin

  13. #13

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    I found a note listing the modulation pressure of the 722.354 /400E with 3.8 bar. I could measure the pressure with the current modulator (before I remove it...which is a pain in that tight spot and my car lift still not up) If modulation pressure us fine I could apply vacuum to the line and pressure should go down.... if pressure does not go down with vacuum there is evidence that the current modulator does not work.

    has anyone changed that modulator? and where is the port for measuring modulation pressure on that transmission?

    Martin

  14. #14

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Here are pictures of the modulator I have. I think I'll give the 'new' one a try if the old modulator is not testing positive.
    Also I found pictures of the test port for modulating pressure... It is next to the modulator on the right lower side with a 12mm hex, thread possibly M8 x 1.
    Would be great to have the 3.8bar modulation pressure confirmed at idle without vacuum attached for the 722.354 transmission of the 400E.

    PICT0590.JPG PICT0589.JPG

    PICT0591.JPG PICT0592.JPG

    Martin

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin, there are multiple different modulators and each has a different pressure rating. The one from your diesel trans may not work properly unless it happens to be the correct part number. The one in your photo with the plastic cap and plastic rod is the new style.

    The correct modulator for your car would either be 126-270-43-79 (old style, rubber cap) or 126-270-91-79 (new style, plastic cap).

    https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mer...lve-1262709179

    https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...ve/1262709179/
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Dave, this is what is on their website: modulator 91-79 fits the 300SDL So there is a chance that the one I have will fit. Did not find a cross reference.

    Mercedes Transmission Modulator Valve - Genuine Mercedes 1262709179

    300CD, 300CE, 300D, 300E, 300SD, 300SDL, 300SE, & more
    Part #:

    MER-1262709179


  17. #17

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Dave,

    my part number seems to fit. Here is a thread in peachparts..

    "Need some help ASAP. Bought a new modulator from worldparts the other day. Came in an MB box, the new part has the MB star, it's original. Only problem, it doesn't match the old modulator.

    New modulator part number: 126 270 5779
    Old modulator part number: 126 270 4379
    ..Also, the box it came in is labeled A 126 270 9179"

    I started putting up my Bentpak which was sitting on the floor for months now. Would be so much easier to work on the transmission. At least the Modulator pushed me to get the lift up.
    Martin

    http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...00se-w126.html

  18. #18
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    The EPC indicates the 300SDL (126.125 chassis) has transmission 722.321 with vacuum modulator 126-270-43-79, which supercedes to... 126-270-91-79. So yes, they may be interchangeable. Given the difficulty of the job on the 400E, if the part is suspect, I'd rather shell out ~$50 for a brand new one. But if you don't mind the labor, you could try swapping in the used spare you have on hand and see what happens!


  19. #19

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Dave, thanks for the info and the pictures of the transmisssion housing with the modulator removed! The pictures help a lot imagining what the transmission looks like while working in this blind spot.
    I am trying to get this car lift going finally and then use it for this job! Cleanliness and lots of patience are probably the main ingredients.
    Martin

  20. #20

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Gerry
    thanks for pointing out the picture procedure, not sure what went wrong the other day. Problem did not show up at the last uploads.
    Immer gut einen Klugscheisser zu haben.

    Martin

  21. #21

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Very silent forum indeed!
    I did test the modulator today: 3.65 bar at idle without vac. Modulation pressure dropped when vacuum applied 5 inHg- 2.5bar, 10 inHg- 1.2bar, 15 inHg- 0bar.
    I believe this modulator works just fine. Any opinion.
    No one confirmed that modulation pressure for this trans is at 3.8 bar. Does anyone know?

    Now I am at a loss what the problem might be. Any suggestions?
    Change ATF , use snake oil in trans - Seafoam for instance, anything broken inside?
    I need your help now.

    Martin

  22. #22

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    The Story goes on, hold on... I drained finally gearbox and converter. Uhhh, very very ugly oil coming out and lots of chips...steel chips I guess. I have seen bad oil but this is hardly to be recognized as ATF.

    Story of the car: I own it since a bit over one year and had no record other than the owner (who owns a garage wrenching on old Mercedes) who claimed 'everything' is up to date. Well I don't know how old that oil was in that box... I guess many many years too long how it looks. No wonder why the transmission once in a while behaved a bit jerky: some shifts were not clean but only rarely and from this spring on there was some more of that...until the hard shift that was hard to oversee and forget. The transmission however was not that bad up to this point. I had not driven that much at all, maybe 2-3K, mostly my wife who drives very mellow.

    PICT0602.JPG PICT0600.JPG PICT0597.JPG

    PICT0603.JPG PICT0604.JPG PICT0605.JPG

    Please look at the pictures of the oil pan and the cut open filter.

    There was a metal wire in the pan (first picture), could be a piece of spring -but I don't know how this could happen- or a surclip. Wire diameter is 1.0mm. If a surclip it could have been sitting in a 4mm groove on a shaft. Could it be that the wire was ripped out from the interiors of the transmission...hard to believe. Or did someone drop a piece of wire in the transmission?

    Please respond this time an come with comments. I really need help this time.

    What do people suggest?
    Martin

  23. #23
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin, the majority of that metallic debris is likely to be ground up springs, just as you are thinking. What has probably happened is that one of the clutches or the reverse brake had discs wear or loose material to the point where the operating piston for that member was able extend far enough that it pushed the piston return spring retainer off of its attachment. Obviously, whatever shift is controlled by that particular member will go from bad to terrible or nonexistent, and the return springs were freed to be able to fall into and get eaten up in the gearsets. Sometimes this does not damage the gear sets, but obviously, it can't possibly do them a bit of good. Your transmission will have to come apart and be competently repaired. Even if it is salvagable, it will require essentially total disassembly just to remove all that metallic debris. I wish I had better news for you, but I'm sure you knew this was bad as soon as you saw the contents of the pan...
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    To give you a reference point, I just had my transmission work done. The media blast and powder coat of the case, and all MB parts used for the complete rebuild including cables, seals etc was $1,600. The install shop also used MB parts to rebuild the drive shaft components, and those parts plus all removal and install labor brought the bill to just under 4K. I could have saved some using after market flex disks, but for me it was worth it to have the real deal on an issue like this since everything I have done on this car was MB unless it was bulk hose.
    1994 E500
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    1991 560 SEC
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    YUCK. What a mess.

    Klink, is there any concern about debris getting pushed through the cooler in the radiator, which may need to be flushed out... or worst case, radiator replaced? If shelling out for a rebuilt tranny, another ~$200 for the radiator might be good insurance. Would hate to have spring shrapnel come out of the cooler and go into a fresh trans. I guess at the moment it would only cost ~$40 in fluid & filter to put it back together and see how much longer it lasts before kerploding entirely.

    On the bright side, Martin has a shiny new lift and could do the R&R himself, maybe get a rebuild from Sun Valley...


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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin, I second GSXR's sentiments, Sun Valley Transmission has a very good reputation for exchange transmission. You ship your fried trans to them and they ship you a rebuilt one back. Not sure how much you want to spend, but to tear it down yourself is a huge job of course.

  30. #27
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    If I had the shop help of a lift and jack, I would have did a core swap with sun valley, definitely.
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Wow-

    Yea I use to talk 722.3xx tranmissions over wine with Stu Ritter several times. Their shop found it cheaper to order a core from a junkyard than rework one with metal damage. Debris gets in the TC possibly, so a couple hundred for a core is really cheap comparatively. Sun valley is a good option I'm told.. close to Atlanta- Jono use to be reasonable too. Stu's old shop is still running and has a good reputation for transmission work in Denver area.

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Sun Valley is located in the San Fernando Valley of Southern California, FYI.

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    YUCK. What a mess.

    Klink, is there any concern about debris getting pushed through the cooler in the radiator, which may need to be flushed out... or worst case, radiator replaced? If shelling out for a rebuilt tranny, another ~$200 for the radiator might be good insurance. Would hate to have spring shrapnel come out of the cooler and go into a fresh trans. I guess at the moment it would only cost ~$40 in fluid & filter to put it back together and see how much longer it lasts before kerploding entirely.

    On the bright side, Martin has a shiny new lift and could do the R&R himself, maybe get a rebuild from Sun Valley...

    Yes! The cooler should always be hyper-cleaned or replaced. If the filter element had been breached, and/or the transmission pump was found to be damaged, then I would replace the radiator...
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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  35. #31

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks everyone for your good input! Thanks Dave for the hint about the cooler.
    Tool me a while to digest and thinking about it.

    I have the 2 options.... buying a rebuilt unit from Sun Valley or I'll get another used transmission.
    As I like some risk I am tending towards the used unit ( I know there is some gambling) inspect and install this one and when I have time I am going to tear the damaged one apart and rebuild the unit if nothing is seriously damaged...at least so far there was no sign of such damage during driving at all.
    In this scenario I'd still have the original transmission and could play with it a bit.

    There is a 1993 400E transmission for sale ($500-600 incl shipping). Question... is the 92 transmission (my car is a 1992) the same as the 93 year transmission?

    What do people think?

  36. #32

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks Klink...thanks so much for the input and knowledge...as I am curios by nature I'd like to tear this transmission apart some day and 'see' what happened. Therefore I am probably getting another used transmission to get the car driving and buy some time for rebuilding. Do you think I can do this... I am a bit knowledgeable about hydraulics and have plenty of tools to play with... my only problem is time really. Are parts available for the 722.354 for repair? Any part sources?
    Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    Martin, the majority of that metallic debris is likely to be ground up springs, just as you are thinking. What has probably happened is that one of the clutches or the reverse brake had discs wear or loose material to the point where the operating piston for that member was able extend far enough that it pushed the piston return spring retainer off of its attachment. Obviously, whatever shift is controlled by that particular member will go from bad to terrible or nonexistent, and the return springs were freed to be able to fall into and get eaten up in the gearsets. Sometimes this does not damage the gear sets, but obviously, it can't possibly do them a bit of good. Your transmission will have to come apart and be competently repaired. Even if it is salvagable, it will require essentially total disassembly just to remove all that metallic debris. I wish I had better news for you, but I'm sure you knew this was bad as soon as you saw the contents of the pan...

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin, the 1992 400E transmission may be a different number (722.3xx) but I believe the main difference is the secondary pump, which IIRC was deleted as of 1993-ish. But yes, the 1992 trans is plug+play in a 1993-1995 400E/E420 (or 124.036).

    Most all parts are available, however if any major components inside are damaged (gears, etc) it may not be cost-effective to buy new replacements, you'd end up needing to get another used trans to part out. All the soft parts and wear parts (clutches, etc) are available new, that shouldn't be an issue.

    If you buy a used trans for ~$500, before installing you should absolutely do a full external re-seal. The cost is low, probably under $50 for all the gaskets / O-rings / etc from your favorite dealer. I'd start by pulling the pan and checking if it's clean before you start. Although it's a PITA, I'd pull the front pump and change the big O-ring as this is a fairly common leaker and requires trans removal to fix. And if the front pump is off, the reverse clutch pack is right there begging you for new friction discs.

    It will make your life much easier if you have the proper tools, particularly for the front pump job and also the B1 piston cover. Both can be done with hand-made tools but ugh, you really don't want to do that. Oddly, I can't find any of the kits on eBay right now. All I could find was this vendor with no price listed (thought these kits were ~$250 or so). At least it gives you an idea what to look for. Photos attached of the SG Motorsports kit.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
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  38. #34

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks Dave,
    the reaseal kit is somerthing like that from Elring?
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...IN=B014I2SUBQ?
    Do you think the big pump seal is included in the Elring kit?

    I guess the friction disks for the reverse clutch is extra somewhere... any good sources here?

    I'll try and get the correct tools.

    Would you bother with the valve body of the used transmission?

    I'd need a good write up of the reseal job or it would be harder for me to do.

    I'll try to get the used transmission shipped and go from there

    Martin

    parts and tools needed for the reseal and friction disc change
    - Elring 722 reseal kit
    - Reverse Friction discs (any part numbers)
    - Tool set for 722 rebuild.

  39. #35

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hey Klink,

    the transmission filter was full of debris but still intact. Chips were in the pan but the filter 'should' have removed them from entering the cooler line...correct?
    No sign that the transmission pump has failed. So maybe I am good. I will at least flush and blow through that old cooler.

    I am just checking what the risk might be to run with the old cooler...vs a new one.
    Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    Yes! The cooler should always be hyper-cleaned or replaced. If the filter element had been breached, and/or the transmission pump was found to be damaged, then I would replace the radiator...

  40. #36

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Klink,

    trying to understand what might have happened.
    I had the car for about a year, not driving very much, mostly my wife (she likes it) and she was telling me once in while that the trans acted up (didn't shift well but no noises) but it was only once in a while and when I drove I didn't notice anything and thought she made it up.
    Then in spring she complained that the car was not pulling off from a start like it normally does as if the clutch didn't work and I also had a feeling that something is off for the first time. But this also went away after some while. Then the transmission made a funny noise from the start..a brief noise which concerned me but it went away... then the hard shifts...
    It shifted through all gears just fine, also reverse. So there was no indication for me that the problem was fatal... like the chips found in the transmission and the wire.


    As I am getting another used transmission and Dave was saying to pull the pump, change the o-ring there and also change the revers clutch (B-3?) friction disks... I was wondering what are the most common wear parts in these transmission that I could take care off now without a full rebuild (which I intend to do with the original one later in time).

    Best, Martin


    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    Martin, the majority of that metallic debris is likely to be ground up springs, just as you are thinking. What has probably happened is that one of the clutches or the reverse brake had discs wear or loose material to the point where the operating piston for that member was able extend far enough that it pushed the piston return spring retainer off of its attachment. Obviously, whatever shift is controlled by that particular member will go from bad to terrible or nonexistent, and the return springs were freed to be able to fall into and get eaten up in the gearsets. Sometimes this does not damage the gear sets, but obviously, it can't possibly do them a bit of good. Your transmission will have to come apart and be competently repaired. Even if it is salvagable, it will require essentially total disassembly just to remove all that metallic debris. I wish I had better news for you, but I'm sure you knew this was bad as soon as you saw the contents of the pan...

  41. #37

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Just out of interest for my far future rebuilding project of the original transmission (the replacement now to get the car moving will probably go in lower budget with just a reseal) :
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Transmaxx-48....c100005.m1851

    Is this kit the full rebuilding kit with ALL seals, gaskets clutches etc? Or is for rebuilding th e722.354 more needed?

    Martin

  42. #38
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin,

    Wits transfer parts sells used parts and new. They can help. If you feel brave, you can replace the b2 pack behind the pump on a used box.

  43. #39
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Martin, the Amazon seal kit is fine but you'd only use a dozen or so of the seals in that kit. You can buy them separately from MB for less, but it's easier to buy a kit.. but then you'll have a partial kit left over and would have to buy the single stuff anyway, if you want to use the full kit on another trans in the future. The external seal process is straightforward - any removable cover or component gets removed, seal replaced, and the item re-installed. The one thing you can skip if desired is the output flange seal, this is not a common leak point, and it can be done with the trans in the car later if necessary. It's all the stuff on the sides and up front you want to take care of on the workbench.

    Photos here of the E500 trans, which will be externally identical to yours: http://www.w124performance.com/image...trans_722.370/

    I'm not familiar with the Transmaxx brand, but that seems awfully cheap for a full kit with all frictions. I think that will include most all the stuff you need but I'm not positive; Klink or Jono (or anyone else who has actually rebuilt a 722.3) would need to chime in.

    BTW, if you do pull the front pump, a common upgrade trick is to NOT install all 20 springs when re-assembling. Leave 4 or 5 springs out (the rest must be evenly spaced). This is supposed to help avoid the reverse clutch/piston problem from recurring in the future.


  44. #40

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks Dave,
    interesting.... I 'll see what I can do when the 'new ' transmission comes in. It will be shipped in a 55gallon drum. We'll see.
    I have seen pictures of the pan and it is clean, seller says no chips. At least there is hope.

    You said various things I could do
    1) reseal external parts.
    2) pull the pump and change clutch lamellas B3? (samiam is talking about the B2? lamellas?)
    3) reduce the amount of springs installed in the K1 clutch (not changing the K1 lamellas?) Reduce springs by how much?
    4) Anything to do with the valve body (I read that some advise to clean it out inside)?

    I guess I need to find a diagram marking up all the parts I want to touch.. and then have you confirm again how deep to go with this new transmission and what exactly to do.
    This is probably a good start when dealing with the full rebuild of the old transmission later on.
    Transmax offers another kit with the steel plates of the clutches which was not included in the cheaper kit.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Transmaxx-48....c100005.m1851
    Do the lamellas only wear in the clutch or do I need the steel plates as well and brake bands (for the full rebuild later) ?



    Best, Martin

  45. #41
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Before I forget: I found a loose reverse piston spring in my shop, the wire diameter is 1.1mm... the piece in your photos could be from one of those springs.

    1) Reseal is easy and cheap, totally worth doing.
    2) You can leave the pump alone and gamble that it won't leak. Depends if you're willing to pull the trans a second time if it leaks.
    3a) If you do pull the pump, reduce the spring count while you're in there.
    3b) If you do pull the pump, the reverse friction discs are easy access. They are moderately expensive, $25 list, $20 discount, four required of p/n 126-272-09-25.
    4) I would remove the cover plates from the valve body and inspect for any broken springs, but that's it. Be very careful if you open it up!

    I'm not sure of the number/letter (Bx, Kx) for the reverse discs... only know the MB part number.


  46. #42

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Hi Dave,

    it will be interesting to see what comes out of the original gear box.

    For the 'new' gear box ...to arrive in about a week or 10 days... I'll definetely want to explore a bit, reseal and pull that pump and change the Reverse lamellas (friction disks)
    Is there an option to buy aftermarket friction disks or does it need to be OEM?
    What about the Precision products for overhaul kits
    What about Borg Warner disks or other after market products? Are there good guys and which are these?
    Do the metal disks also wear or should I not worry about these and reuse?

    Martin

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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    I honestly don't know a bout the quality of the aftermarket friction discs or other parts. If you have the time, I'd pull the discs out of the 'new' tranny and see how they look. If they're in great shape, leave 'em alone. If toast, it's ~$75 for OE (not sure what aftermarket costs). I think the steel plates can typically be reused unless they show excess wear.

    If you're really lucky, the used trans may have been rebuilt already, in which case it may have relatively low wear on the internals. Several cars I've bought had rebuilt transmissions, as evidenced by the serial number not matching the datacard, but otherwise it can be difficult to tell unless there's an obvious identifier like a torque converter with a fresh paint job.

    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
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  48. #44

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    I ordered the precision kit for the 722.3/4 K56900A for $152 including the full set without the steel discs.
    I think for the first round with the used replacement transmission I'll try to get along without the tool kit. If need is I can build my own tools on the lathe/mill
    I'll order a 2 stage transmission lift.

    I'd probably should have the engine output shaft seal handy...just in case? I know you said possibly not needed.
    Same with changing the output shaft of the replacement trans?

    Reducing number of springs in the B3 drum for Reverse: How many springs should be in there /how many kicked out?
    Martin

  49. #45
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by werminghausen View Post
    I'd probably should have the engine output shaft seal handy...just in case? I know you said possibly not needed.
    If you mean the rear crankshaft seal... if it's bone dry, I would leave it alone. If there's signs of leakage, check out this thread for details on the seal R&R.


    Quote Originally Posted by werminghausen View Post
    Same with changing the output shaft of the replacement trans?
    If you are doing everything else on the transmission, might as well do the output shaft seal too. I only mention that it's optional because replacing this seal isn't terribly difficult with the transmission in the car. Most everything else is a nightmare with the trans in the car. OH, almost forgot, don't forget to replace the speed sensor plastic cup + O-ring!! Parts are cheap but it's a PITA to remove the darn thing, may need to break it and remove in pieces. New one just slides in place. I think I have photos at home that are not yet uploaded to my website, ooops. Photo attached of the location, the old plastic cup in that photo is brown... new ones are white.

    EDIT: I can't find my photos - maybe forgot to take any? Pic attached from the Fruitbird forum. P/N for the plastic cup is: 126-271-04-82 and it's <$2 MSRP.


    Quote Originally Posted by werminghausen View Post
    Reducing number of springs in the B3 drum for Reverse: How many springs should be in there /how many kicked out?
    From memory... there are 20 springs, and you can reduce this to 16 or 15 with even spacing.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
    Click here for my YouTube channel

  50. #46

    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Thanks Dave.

    Very helpful.

    I hope all seals are included in the Precision rebuilding Kit.

    I am preparing the removal of the cross exhaust pipe (didn't remove it fore the torque converter drain) . Access of the upper 2 bolts is difficult. Is there a way to hold the nut from the top? Any tips welcome


    'New' transmission is arriving at Boston dock station next Tuesday. The transmission is packed in a 55 gallon drum.

    I bought a transmission lift for the job.

    Martin

  51. #47
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    Re: 400E Hard Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by werminghausen View Post
    Access of the upper 2 bolts is difficult. Is there a way to hold the nut from the top? Any tips welcome.
    Master mechanic tip (from Steve Geyer of SG Motorsports fame) is to remove the top 2 bolts, well, from up top.

    Remove the plastic firewall thingy at the back of the intake manifold, and remove the throttle linkage+bracket to make more room to work (try not to break the plastic threaded end of the throttle cable). You can access the top 2 trans bolts from above surprisingly well. If you're lucky you can break them loose with a breaker bar / cheater bar and then spin out by hand, otherwise I think there's room to fit a small ratchet or use a ratcheting box-end wrench. This is waaay easier than using 3 feet of extensions from below. To make more space above you can lift the rear of the transmission gently (!) up against the trans tunnel, after unbolting the trans mount.

    Remember to have support available for the engine when the trans comes out; IIRC the engine will want to flop forward against the radiator. Need to pull the fan clutch out as well. You'll want to prop the front of the engine up to match the downward angle of the trans. If possible have a second person help when you are ready to remove the trans from the engine. You can do it alone but a second pair of hands & eyes is really, um, handy.


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