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Thread: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

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    I do believe...! Christian_K's Avatar
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    Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    As you might know, with our ALUSIL Blocks you can't just use any aftermarket piston. The piston skirts needs to be iron-spray coated or they won't last longer than a couple of miles in an ALUSIL block. (Interesting read on that matter, though more about NIKASIL: http://www.electrosil.com.au/ElectrosilNikasil.pdf)
    Now, i've had an Hour-long discussion with Bernard today over Facebook, planning to probably bore my spare 5L to 100mm and use 100mm pistons to achive some 5.4L (hey no-one has that), but he quickly told me that this is almost impossible today.
    Reason would be that only Kolbenschmidt/Pierburg and MAHLE hold the patents to do this iron-spray coating of the piston-skirts (Also called brand-name "FERROCOAT") and they both don't manufacture the 100mm M119 specific pistons anymore. Custom-orders only in larger quantities (1000pieces at lest)
    Only some 100mm ferro-coated M119 pistons (probably for the E60AMG customers) seem to be left at the "Mercedes GLC" in Germany as Bernards proclaimed "Only Source left", and of course he said they would be veeeery pricey. (Not much bang for the buck there).

    So i searched in google the last couple of hours if there are any other manufacturers besides MAHLE and KOLBENSCHMIDT that produce iron-spray coated (aka "FERROCOATED") pistons. Shortly before giving-up on the search with ZERO results, i found a nice Forums Topic about custom Pistons. It seems there are two other Manufacturers doing own Piston-skirt coatings to allow the use in ALUSIL blocks and THEY DO custom pistons at order.
    One is the well known "JE Pistons" and the other one is "Wössner Kolben/Woessner pistons".
    But let me quote the post of an race engine builder on that matter:


    Frist – what alloy do you want? 2618 or 4032?

    2618 – Thought by many to be ‘stronger’ alloy and a better choice for all out racing. Down side - Higher expansion ratio, faster wear and the alloy is slightly heavier than 4032. The 2618 alloy will start to deform under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
    4032 – Quieter on start up, better long term wear. The 4032 alloy will crack under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
    In truth either alloy will stand up to hard use in a 944 if the tuning is correct.
    Stock pistons are very similar to the 4032 alloy. The original Mahle stroker pistons were 4032. Wossner use 4032 for almost all their pistons. JE will use either alloy but they prefer to use the 2618 on the high performance pistons.
    I have used both and I have seen failures with both. They difference in strength in very small. If your engine goes into hard detonation while on boost at the track neither alloy will survive!

    Second – piston manufacturer –

    Mahle – makes the ‘standard’ stroker or 3.0 piston in batches every now and then. Seems to drive up the price and demand. They used to be the only alusil compatible pitons available and the price reflected that. I have not worked with them.

    JE – big player in domestic racing pistons. They do make Porsche pistons to order but they (in my opinion) don’t seem to want to cater to small production runs. Not big on custom engineering designs. Many of their forged blanks are made with chevy valve reliefs that are visible on the underside of the pistons – extra charge to have these machined off. They like to work in SAE measurements instead of metric. Most ring packs are SAE sized. The coatings they offer were not specifically developed for Alusil but they claim that they work. I have heard pro and con comments from people that have tried their alusil coating – I have not tired it.

    Wossner – German piston manufacturer specializing in euro cars. I like working with Wossner because each and every order gets its own set of very detailed engineering drawings that I must approve before they manufacture the pistons. They will make virtually anything I ask. You can specify any finished diameter in .01mm steps – nice for making up replacement pistons – you don’t have to go to the next ‘standard’ size. Wossner developed a coating expressly for Alusil blocks, it has been approved by BMW for their blocks (Porsche wont’’ approve of anything!). I have one set of wossners that have over 100 track days – no measurable change in leakdown.

    Customer Service -
    To be truthful all the piston manufacturers can be a little unpredictable in delivery times. I do get annoyed with JE because they offer a 50% ‘fast delivery’ upcharge. This means that if I order a set of pistons and somebody pays the 50% for their pistons to be made first my order will be delayed. If I order pistons and I am told 6 weeks I expect to have them in 6 weeks – not 8 weeks because orders made after mine coughed up the 50% fee.
    I have also had a several sets of JE’s that were missed fabricated and even though it was their fault the replacement set were added to the back of the que – another 6 week wait.

    I use almost all Wossners now because the engineers will work with me and I can get exactly what I want. I also like the ring packs they supply – lighter and a nicer finish that the standard stuff JE supplies.
    The Woessners are by the way the cheapest per custom set they said in that forums. (6 Porsche 100.1mm pistons for ~1000$ including rings)

    So this is good news and i thought i share that with you.

    Do you know any other Custom Piston manufacturers that offer coated pistons for ALUSIL blocks? If so, post them please
    Last edited by Christian_K; 04-04-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Wiseco made some for the guy in Australia racing an M119, they were 101 or 102mm, I think. Pretty sure they were being used in an Alusil block, not sleeved, but Jono might know for sure:

    http://www.w124performance.com/images/M119/pistons/

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Wiseco, they make my pistons and they have coatings. FWIW, Swaintech's PC9 also works Very well in an Alusil bore. Lindsay racing who has a TON of experience w/ Porsche and Alusil was the one that turned me on to that setup...and Yes, they did do Tim's pistons for his 6.2L M119.

    JE isn't half the company they used to be. CP was a PITA, the guys @ Wiseco have made me some Gorgeous pistons.

    http://www.wiseco.com/Automotive/Pistons.aspx

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Thanks alot Gentlemen
    Another myth busted.
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    THe original coating was iron. There has been lots of advances in piston coatings since our engines were designed circa ? 1985.


    Michael

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    THe original coating was iron. There has been lots of advances in piston coatings since our engines were designed circa ? 1985.


    Michael
    Yes i was thinking that too, that there must be at least something "other" than Kolbenschmidts/Mahles "Ferrocoating", if not something "better".
    It was just that Bernard told me over and over again, that only the Ferrocoating works with the M119 Alusil-Blocks reliable, he said that is the reason why even Renntech USA used the Pistons from Mahle/Kolbenschmidt and didn't fiddling around with any aftermarket pistons. He told me that with any other Piston but Kolbenschmidt/Mahle the engine won't be durable.
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    This was probably true in the mid-1990's... but as posted above, we've come a long way, baby!


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    If you want ferro coating.. Mahle will make you a custom set in NC USA! I think Renntech's choice is he is german and had worked for AMG. So, he's got his contacts of the AMG supply chain.. and could probably order Kolbenschmidt pistons without any problem. I bet he purchased cranks from AMG or their supplier in germany. No reason to put together a new supply chain. Remember it's not like there was going to be any price saving to be had as the cost is passed on to the customer.

    Sliding friction AL on AL galles (metal transfer). That's why you iron coat the piston skirt. There are a bunch of graphite coatings and other lower friction coatings which will work. No magic... What you do want is a piston designed to expansion rate which works with an Aluminum block/bore. You want to maintain tight cylinder wall clearances for long life! That's the part that many piston makers use to American iron are not going to get right.

    KS and Mahle are different companies... KS (Alusil) and Mahle used the Niskle coating (plating).

  9. #9

    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Bringing up that old thread. I contacted to wössner but the response I get was not very usefull:

    " Thank you for your mail. These pistons are not part of our product range. We can most probably produce them as custom made pistons but will need a sample to confirm the doability and issue a quote accordingly. "
    So they need a sample to make exact copy? I attached copy of that wiseco order form found on w124 archive but they did not comment that. If someone have better contact than that public email address please let me know. Currently CP is the only piston manufacturer that has responded and for past experience I know they can deliver,
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by jouniu View Post
    Bringing up that old thread. I contacted to wössner but the response I get was not very usefull:

    " Thank you for your mail. These pistons are not part of our product range. We can most probably produce them as custom made pistons but will need a sample to confirm the doability and issue a quote accordingly. "
    So they need a sample to make exact copy? I attached copy of that wiseco order form found on w124 archive but they did not comment that. If someone have better contact than that public email address please let me know. Currently CP is the only piston manufacturer that has responded and for past experience I know they can deliver,
    I have spoken with them over the phone a year ago or so and was in contact with Bernard about the results of that call. Woessner said they can do whatever piston i like starting at ONE piece already and all what they need are the measurments. They have documents on their website that one need to fill out and provide further data about engine, compression, stroke, bore, bla bla bla - all the typical infos. I think to remember that they will also help developing a fitting piston. So for instance if we now would say we want 11:1 compression with stock early series (119.97x) combustion chambers they can do it.
    Regarding the Alusil coating. Their technican told me on the phone that they use a molybdenum (probably molykote - i dont really remember if they were specifically naming this on the phone) as a skirt coating and that this will work for the Alusil bores, they have zero issues with customers, Alusil bores and graphite skirt coating. He explained me that on used stock pistons the stock iron spray coatings by Mahle and Kolbenschmitt/Pierburg also does wear down very quick and would actually be only needed for the break-in period, until pistons and bore developed their own "Laufspiel", Eng probably "running play" ??? Dont know the term sorry.

    I dont know what to think of this. Bernard laughed at it and said he will never ever try something unclear like this. He could not sleep well at night having sold a customer an engine with such pistons were he does not know: "Will such pistons still work after like 50.000km with long hard runs on the Autobahn, while the Mahle ones do?" Bernard can loose a Name....
    I can understand his point as an entrepeneur, with warranty, etc. Bernard buys his 6L and 6.5L pistons still at Mahle, i think you need to order like 100pieces at a time and one piece is still like 400€ NET or so.
    The ones that were on the last years international meet will remember that Bernards trunk was filled with 6L Pistons that he fresh got from Mahle.
    He also bought a large bunch (really large) of M119 6.x L super flat and super light (compared to the normal 6L AMG-Style pistons) slipper Pistons that Mahle had left over and were made years ago for Carlsson, but Carlsson never picked them up. But for these pistons you need IIRC other connecting rods and piston bolts, etc. So he does not yet use them. I think they are in the 100mm bore... or were they 101mm? I dont remember as every time i visit his shop its information overflow.

    I told him, if i will build my own 6L in the future, i will try Woessner pistons. But that could still be 5 years from now. At that point we will have other issues, like getting all spare parts for the M119 engine for reasonable prices.
    Last edited by Christian_K; 07-15-2015 at 02:25 AM. Reason: corrected: graphite -> molybdenum
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Tims 6.3litre M119 beast in NZ as back in his SEC coupe track car and i notice he has recently fired it up -take a listen to those wild lumpy cams

    His block is bored to 102mm and he runs custom Wiseco Pistons to suit (with a M117 560 crank & rods)
    He has raced this engine on the track "very hard" topping out at 7,500rpm constantly over the season he raced before stepping away from racing for other priorities until now -he is back and the engine is back in the WB SEC.

    However his biggest gripe with the M119 engine is very poor oil supply to big ends because the block oil supply holes are too small and the main bearing does not get enough oil to feed it at high revs. So he solved this a while back by having the block line bored and grooving behind all the main bearings and drilling of the top bearings to increase oil flow which worked as no failure issues after that.

    This naturally aspirated M119-960 engine is "highly modified" but reliable (even with the M117 crank & rods pulling high revs on the track) and those Wiseco Pistons have stood up to the punishment fine.
    Turn up your sound and enjoy the link below
    https://www.facebook.com/tim.latrobe...type=2&theater
    https://www.facebook.com/tim.latrobe.3


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by HOFF View Post
    Tims 6.3litre M119 beast in NZ as back in his SEC coupe track car and i notice he has recently fired it up -take a listen to those wild lumpy cams

    His block is bored to 102mm and he runs custom Wiseco Pistons to suit (with a M117 560 crank & rods)
    He has raced this engine on the track "very hard" topping out at 7,500rpm constantly over the season he raced before stepping away from racing for other priorities until now -he is back and the engine is back in the WB SEC.

    However his biggest gripe with the M119 engine is very poor oil supply to big ends because the block oil supply holes are too small and the main bearing does not get enough oil to feed it at high revs. So he solved this a while back by having the block line bored and grooving behind all the main bearings and drilling of the top bearings to increase oil flow which worked as no failure issues after that.

    This naturally aspirated M119-960 engine is "highly modified" but reliable (even with the M117 crank & rods pulling high revs on the track) and those Wiseco Pistons have stood up to the punishment fine.
    Turn up your sound and enjoy the link below
    https://www.facebook.com/tim.latrobe...type=2&theater
    https://www.facebook.com/tim.latrobe.3


    Intresting thing that oil supply thing. That is exactly what I did for my saab engine that it can handle revs up to 8000rpm, bored the main supply channel +2mm and channel to main bearing +2mm.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Humm,

    Where to start and add good information? FERROCOAT process may have been patented but those patents have run their course and it's free-domain now. I have read MB's papers on ALUSIL versus NIKASIL (sp??). They find the Alusil more durable... but on the M119 race engines were all NIKASIL as it has a reduced friction(pick up a few hp).

    Diverging, if you want Ferrocoated pistons - there are 100's of coating companies which can do iron plasma spray. You simply have to google up the process and not the patented trade name "ferrocoated pistons". We did a pivot which was aluminum wearing out with tungsten carbide and polished. I agree with Jono that more modern, lower coefficient of friction coating than iron.

    Aluminum on aluminum will always gall, so you have to have a coating.


    If you are seeking to solve oiling problems, might take a look at how MB did the Saber engines. What cams are you going to put in your 6.0 build?


    Michael

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by jouniu View Post
    Intresting thing that oil supply thing. That is exactly what I did for my saab engine that it can handle revs up to 8000rpm, bored the main supply channel +2mm and channel to main bearing +2mm.
    This may be a problem specific to the 119.960 tall-deck block. Has anyone reported the same issue with the later 119.97/119.98 blocks?


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    Humm,

    Where to start and add good information? FERROCOAT process may have been patented but those patents have run their course and it's free-domain now. I have read MB's papers on ALUSIL versus NIKASIL (sp??). They find the Alusil more durable... but on the M119 race engines were all NIKASIL as it has a reduced friction(pick up a few hp).

    Diverging, if you want Ferrocoated pistons - there are 100's of coating companies which can do iron plasma spray. You simply have to google up the process and not the patented trade name "ferrocoated pistons". We did a pivot which was aluminum wearing out with tungsten carbide and polished. I agree with Jono that more modern, lower coefficient of friction coating than iron.

    Aluminum on aluminum will always gall, so you have to have a coating.


    If you are seeking to solve oiling problems, might take a look at how MB did the Saber engines. What cams are you going to put in your 6.0 build?

    Michael
    Today they use Ferroprint. Not the classic iron plasma spray. There is a Video from Mahle from German TV "Kabel 1" on YT that shows for some seconds this newer process.
    I Think Molykote will work just fine. It also has low friction properties, together with super light slipper-design pistons with super-small piston skirts it should be good i think.
    6L is really the way to go these days i think. The Stock 5L M119 with the sloppy 4 speed auto is IMHO just "slow" compared to even some mid-class, low-displacement current 6 cylinder BMW or whatever engines, no matter at which speed.
    Last years drive in Bernards 6.0 Limited Brabus with Dyno verified 420HP and 2.65 E420 Differential was just amazing, no matter if inside cities, rural roads or on the Autobahn, it felt almost as good acceleration as my CL55 AMG Kompressor. There was always just "enough" Torque available, hard to describe, no matter at which RPM and speed he did either slow or fast accelerate - just a nice feeling and enough Torque.

    I'll use either my current in Process DBilas regrind Cams to this spec: http://www.dbilas-shop.com/Produkte/...en::10537.html (Thats my spec they measured and found the maximum doable for regrinds based on the early .974 cams with 9.5/8.8mm lift without lash caps/spacers between valveshaft and Lifter), or there will be built steel cams or billet steel cams. Both requires extensive testing because Steel in the aluminum head bores behaves different than the chilled cast iron of the stock cams. Thats the reason why NO tuner ever came with Steel M119 cams. We will see what the future brings and if there is a market for a small series of 10 sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    This may be a problem specific to the 119.960 tall-deck block. Has anyone reported the same issue with the later 119.97/119.98 blocks?

    Never so far. Everything in the Oil System should be strong and wide enough to suit almost every situation imaginable.
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Kristian,

    There are lots of steel cams running in aluminum, but your stock lifter would not work with them
    I believe 10 years ago blanks were available so why mess with steel?
    I was reading lancia stuff. They bore the cam box so they can keep a big base circle. 12.5mm cams. Wow. Besides, you can always get the cam journals coated.

    Real question is are you going for a higher rpm? Better rods?

    I've driven 6.0 liter and yes it is quite nice.
    Lot of hrs to build and $$. Most of us don't have Bernard to answer questions or help tune it afterward.

    Michael

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    I kick this process to progress, let see what happens. My setup will be M119.960 tall block, M117 5.6 crank and 100mm bore pistons with original connecting rods. I already sent OEM piston to US company to model piston crown. I will share all information how this goes.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by jouniu View Post
    I already sent OEM piston to US company to model piston crown. I will share all information how this goes.
    Which US company? Wiseco?


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Which US company? Wiseco?

    Top-end performance to handle those things, and yes wiseco to manufacture.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    I had Woessner make a set of 99mm custom forged pistons for my M117 AMG engine with Alusil compatible coating on the skirts. Engine is built and waiting for install back into my W126. Certainly hoping for good results.

    Al

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Keep us updated.
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    My set is still in manufacturing. Price is ~$1600, I think that is not so bad for custom pistons for alusil block.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Let us know how the rods work too. I know for the 119.970 engines the rod caps are counter-bored deeper so the bolt head will clear the block. You could easily do this, it's just buying a counter bore cutter with the correct radius and a guide if needed. Be nice to do it in a vertical mill to keep things perpendicular.

    M

  29. #24

    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    They just arrived. Looking good, next re-balancing crank & rods. Steve @Top-End did great job, I can recommend, should be easy for US guys.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Nice! Are those 100mm bore? How much lighter are than than stock?


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Nice! Are those 100mm bore? How much lighter are than than stock?


    Almost the same weight, those weight 10g more than original 96.5mm piston. (556g vs 566g). Original piston pin is 20g heavier. Yes they are 100mm. For M119.97x it would be easier to make lighter pistons since compression height is much smaller. Compression ratio goes up to ~12, can be tuned a bit head gasket. Should not be a problem for 98 RON fuel, and E85 is here available and ~50% cheaper than gas.
    500SL-90

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by jouniu View Post
    They just arrived. Looking good, next re-balancing crank & rods. Steve @Top-End did great job, I can recommend, should be easy for US guys.
    Very nice indeed, how about headgaskets? Would prefere H-rods instead but keep going. Roger
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    Very nice indeed, how about headgaskets? Would prefere H-rods instead but keep going. Roger
    There is some local manufacturers that can do custom head gaskets, and http://www.navalineasport.it/eg/guarnizioni.htm is also an option, I have custom Navalinea gasket in my other car. Cometic have done custom 100mm gaskets to M117. Yes Pauter or Carrillo rods would be nice, maybe next time
    500SL-90

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Jouniu, are you going OEM Pistons rings or did they provide suitable ones? From what I hear, it's critical, so you do not end up with "cut" liners or seased....Roger
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    Jouniu, are you going OEM Pistons rings or did they provide suitable ones? From what I hear, it's critical, so you do not end up with "cut" liners or seased....Roger
    Yes, there are suitable rings included. Rings are acatually made by JE. I will take a picture about rings when I am home.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Jouniu,,, and others involved in the 6-liter discussion, listen, I may be in the need for 101mm pistons. Why so? Well, perhaps I will
    be offered?? to buy one W210 E60 AMG motor, it is right now disassembled completely to find out what the problem with, knocking ticking and oilburning was. As it turned out to be, it was overheated so cyl. bores and pistons are " shot " and rebore or sleaving are the only remedy.

    All other AMG parts are good to reuse, heads crank etc. Now I will go into this matter a bit deeper and find out, there are no easy/cheap ways out of this maze.

    Question to esp. Jouniu how far have you been proceeding, if so, please post what's new....
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Does it really need 101mm? The factory manual indicates that 100.5mm would be the preferred repair size. Might be available from AMG but probably at great expense.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave M.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Does it really need 101mm? The factory manual indicates that 100.5mm would be the preferred repair size. Might be available from AMG but probably at great expense.

    Thanks Dave, were do you get all of that stuff? Well about the bore .5 or 1mm I do not know yet, he who took the motor
    apart said that he felt the bores were a bit "conical" no meassures taken, and perhaps it's best to wait for the
    right pistons to show up, the bores does not look nice, the pistons, even worse, i'll try to get more photos...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Where the F... do you guys get all these 6L engines from? zero here available in germany, no W210 E60 to find below 20K these days... crazy and cheaper to make own 6L still...
    We need a good source to manufacture custom CNC milled crankshafts....
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Hello Christian, Yes it seems to be, a World "Upside down" what you expected many years ago, parts should
    be easy to find aplenty, and quite cheap too, there in the Vaterland, This W210 E60 is a T model '97 and I was,
    am looking to bid for the whole car, I do not belive the owner is prepared to pay for a complete motor overhaul therefore I hope he is willing to part with the motor.

    So for parts "only" it will be Worth it but it just takes 8 pistons and a rebore. The search for pistons continues.

    PS here a better photo of the worst cyl.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Taxi Driver; 08-22-2016 at 09:12 AM.
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    I hereby come forward to You, directly from AMG via Mercedes dealer, the sad news, there are NLA
    overdimention pistons for the E60 motor.

    SO, what to do? They only said, talk to the machineshop? I have to read between the lines here and fill in
    the possible steps. Find OD pistons elswere, yeah in my Dreams, bore Another block and fit OEM pistons, right?
    Go to the aftermarket,,,do they really, I mean Really have pistons AND rings to be compatible w Alusil?
    Take the block and reline the bores, then it is possible to use aftermarket forged pistons wich are cheaper
    than Mahle/KS counterparts. It can be said, reline the block will set you back some 3-4 K €€€€

    Did I overlook any option?

    To paraphrace, Robert Zimmerman, Bob D, There must be some way out of here, said the Stroker to the Tech...
    From My watchtower to all of you, who can not stop thinking,,,6liter,,,
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    I hereby come forward to You, directly from AMG via Mercedes dealer, the sad news, there are NLA
    overdimention pistons for the E60 motor.

    SO, what to do? They only said, talk to the machineshop? I have to read between the lines here and fill in
    the possible steps. Find OD pistons elswere, yeah in my Dreams, bore Another block and fit OEM pistons, right?
    Go to the aftermarket,,,do they really, I mean Really have pistons AND rings to be compatible w Alusil?
    Take the block and reline the bores, then it is possible to use aftermarket forged pistons wich are cheaper
    than Mahle/KS counterparts. It can be said, reline the block will set you back some 3-4 K €€€€

    Did I overlook any option?

    To paraphrace, Robert Zimmerman, Bob D, There must be some way out of here, said the Stroker to the Tech...
    From My watchtower to all of you, who can not stop thinking,,,6liter,,,
    Everything you need to know is listed here in this thread actually Also i mentioned it already that those pistons are NLA, Bernard bought the last remaining set(s) from Mercedes Germersheim (largest daimler storage/warehouse) at least a year ago.
    Contact the listed here piston manufacturers, and get yourself some quotes for 101mm slipper pistons working with stock rods and Alusil block. Yes i think a set of pistons, small materials (give it a new chain and stuff while youre there already), rebore/hone/silica polish (search sommeone that has a torque-plate for M119 or creates one!!!) will be in the 4K range. And i forgot the two extremely expensive headgaskets aswell for, what is current price 800€/piece?
    Last edited by Christian_K; 08-24-2016 at 03:20 AM.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Personally I would not sleeve/line the block. Have it bored / etched in Alusil like factory, and use oversize pistons & rings for Alusil applications. It won't be cheap, I'm sure. 101mm is the maximum I would consider, assuming 100.5 may not be adequate to remove the scoring/scratches in the bores.

    Gaskets are a different question. The FSM docs seem to imply the standard 6L head gasket will work with the 100.5mm bore, but will it support a 101mm bore? I don't know. Given the crazy cost (€800 each sounds accurate), you may want to look into having custom gaskets produced instead, which may be significantly less expensive. If you had multiple sets produced, forum members may buy the extras if the price is reasonable.


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    I've gone from Weisco to Mahle after they mis-machined a set of pistons for me (valve pockets offset in the wrong direction on 3 of the 8 pistions..only 50 thou but that was Enough to cause problems...Good times..)

    Anywho, the last set of Mahle 100mm pistons we got for a 960 were Beautiful. Total seal makes rings for alusil in the appropriate size.

    We are already making 6L gaskets for 117/119.6XX and 7XX.. in 101mm

    jono
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    What do you pay per piston at Mahle? I was not aware they produce small quantities...
    Regarding headgaskets.... Price?
    Do the gaskets really work? Long time experience is the key here. I know from Bernard that Mercedes replaced the 6L gaskets countless times throughout production as they start leaking at the rear side (water) over (sometimes short amount of) time....
    Christian K.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Personally I would not sleeve/line the block. Have it bored / etched in Alusil like factory, and use oversize pistons & rings for Alusil applications. It won't be cheap, I'm sure. 101mm is the maximum I would consider, assuming 100.5 may not be adequate to remove the scoring/scratches in the bores.

    Gaskets are a different question. The FSM docs seem to imply the standard 6L head gasket will work with the 100.5mm bore, but will it support a 101mm bore? I don't know. Given the crazy cost (€800 each sounds accurate), you may want to look into having custom gaskets produced instead, which may be significantly less expensive. If you had multiple sets produced, forum members may buy the extras if the price is reasonable.

    That's correct about relining, that is a very expensive path to go. To find custom built set of 100+mm set of
    pistons and rings for Alusil bore would be the best and cheapest.
    What I am concerned about is, are the now available pistons " trustworthy"??
    The headgaskets I can have made, gasketmaterial and O-rings that cut into the cyl.head, much much cheaper
    than Oem gaskets wich are ridicuosly high priced.

    Conclusion; rebore I can have done for ~800€ and the use of the original block is a big+

    The thing about letting MB ask AMG and return the answer is, maybe when many do request for parts NLA
    they perhaps will start reproduce these parts. We can not be the only ones to ask for this, say all the SL60's
    one or two may have the same problem and what will they be told? Scrap that Shit or what!!!

    Christian, did you or do you intend to buy, what kind of pistons? Should here be some "Group buy" or what's
    your suggestion?
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian_K View Post
    What do you pay per piston at Mahle? I was not aware they produce small quantities...
    Regarding headgaskets.... Price?
    Do the gaskets really work? Long time experience is the key here. I know from Bernard that Mercedes replaced the 6L gaskets countless times throughout production as they start leaking at the rear side (water) over (sometimes short amount of) time....
    I think it came out to somewhere in the 3,000 USD range for the set w/ rings/pins etc..

    Not cheap by any means but after a while you get tired of mucking about/fighting and just Pay Up.

    have not had a leaker yet.. granted, none of these cars are in Daily use. They occasional use @ best.

    My Goal is to get MLS gaskets made up but they are still cost prohibitive...

    jono
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    I think it came out to somewhere in the 3,000 USD range for the set w/ rings/pins etc..

    Not cheap by any means but after a while you get tired of mucking about/fighting and just Pay Up.

    have not had a leaker yet.. granted, none of these cars are in Daily use. They occasional use @ best.

    My Goal is to get MLS gaskets made up but they are still cost prohibitive...

    jono
    Jono, did you have the conversation directly with Mahle? If MB and AMG say NLA I guess Mahle or KS could help
    even on a low series. If they Think any "good will"
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    Jono, did you have the conversation directly with Mahle? If MB and AMG say NLA I guess Mahle or KS could help
    even on a low series. If they Think any "good will"
    This was Mahle direct..they have a custom piston section of the company that deals with this sort of thing. Still had to send them a sample piston (std bit) so they could verify some things but that aside it wasn't bad dealing with them.

    When I ordered they were BUSY, it was almost 3 months before they arrived.

    I have some pics around of the last set, I'll see if I can find them on my computer and toss em up for y'all.

    Jono
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    FYI,

    You do know that if needed- KS has Alusil liners for repair. I think they have a catalog list on their website- seen a video of them repairing a V12.

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    If liners were needed, Alusil liners would be the only way to go. I would not recommend steel/iron sleeves/liners, as some others have mentioned in the past. Mixing materials is generally not a good idea.


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    I saw Alusil liners in the past for sale... they were pretty expensive.
    Jono please post up pictures of the pistons... Did they also do .97x 100mm pistons for you yet? If so they already have the data so one could with your acceptance, just order the Jono 100mm pistons.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Well guys, where do we get to, in the end? As it seems, the best (only?) way is, 100-100.5-101mm Mahle or KS.
    Aftermarket, I am not so sure, anymore. Machining cost, would be the same whatever you do and if, OD is very
    hard to find, a new block, 400/500 closed deck to bore. Anyone, call me if you have suitable pistons to spare...
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Remember if you get a different block, you will need to machine the inside for clearance on the stroker crank, in addition to boring to 100mm.

    Dave M.
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Inside the block, I don't Think is much of an issue. Most work are on the rods and crank and they are allready there.
    The downside with a new block is, it does not have the AMG stamps and motor identity....
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Phew...i just got married/no kids. Life of DINK..

    Plan is, When/If we squeeze a kid out, we'll get a German nanny so when it comes time to Uni off she/he/?? goes to Germany. School for just about free..

    ...but we'll have spent all the $$'s on private school leading up since the public schools in GA are Crap.

    Did manage to find her old 560SL we sold back in 06 and surprise her with it for the wedding, she was pretty psyched...
    ...don't give me a reason to go car hunting!

    White on oxblood...EVERYTHING done, 130K, we bought it from the original owners back in 02 just after she graduated University.

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    What I was thinking, if you have a block in the need.........

    Is this too far out west? 102mm
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    To date, I have not heard of a single M119 bored to 102mm that lived a long, happy life.


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  77. #54
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    To date, I have not heard of a single M119 bored to 102mm that lived a long, happy life.

    Who did, and what pistons did they use?
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    RENNtech allegedly built a few M119.97x with 102mm bores and they all failed with pretty low miles... information is sketchy though. I don't know of any 102mm block that is alive today and running well. I think RENNtech only built a handful, like 3 or 4 of them? Maybe samiam knows.

    Pistons would have been custom, no idea who RENNtech had produce them. One of the engines allegedly had a head gasket failure and the block/pistons were OK. Austin (omegabenz) bought the block/pistons and sold them about 10 years ago. I thought I had photos saved but I can't find them now.


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    "One of the engines allegedly had a head gasket failure and the block/pistons were OK."

    This will never end, it seems, if we do not take it all the way. About the headgaskets, I Believe
    the only way to go, is a proper O-ringing, that is the only way to ensure total seal, as said//You?
    OEM gasket for .5mm OD was 102mm across. Maybe some were tempted to use that on
    101 or 102mm bore? If I ever have to lift the heads, O-ringing it will be.
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    O-ringing requires machining both the block and head, correct? Sure would be nice if you could get an O-ring type head gasket that only required machining the heads. Much easier than pulling a motor out of a car, tearing it down, and then machining the block as well...


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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    No no, that I was thinking also but when I a couple of months ago had a chat with the Machine shop
    the guy there said: we send in the old gasket, they make a template and cut the gasketmaterial
    they make it big enough around the cylinders to fit a "cut ring" made out of steel wich is placed loose on the block inside the gasket. when you tighten it the ring will "cut" into the head Surface and the gasketmaterial does the sealing of the water jackets and the oil feed hole.
    The O-ring is not more than ~1.5mm , this they do to Turbo and rallye/race motors where you can not find steel gaskets. BTW they had one MB steelgasket on their list, for the M120!!!
    how bout that?

    Looking at the cyl. bores if you take 1mm off the wall it does not seem to much and plenty of
    room for an O-ring, not so for a regular gasket with the folded over steel sealing ring.
    The regular compression seal has to rely on quite a wide Surface wich is some 3mm wide
    in this case there is no room for that and makes it unreliable to, as earlier practice was to
    make a new steel fold. One disadvantage with the OEM gasket is, it's rounded edge closest
    to the most critical area: the combustion chamber, there the cutting ring really work reliably.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Taxi Driver; 08-26-2016 at 03:47 PM.
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    piston02.jpgcrank01.jpg

    After long time something has happened.. There was many problems, first block went bad due machining errors. But so far this looks good. Note strong bearing caps in early .960, later versions bearing caps are much lighter. 5.6 M117 crank in place.
    500SL-90

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    I do believe...! Christian_K's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

    So this pistons are from Weossner? But they are 10.1 compression pistons, right?
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
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