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Thread: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

  1. #1
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    So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I've been an MB regular for a long time. I'm considering buying a 1992 500E that a local mechanic has. It's got $127k miles on it, the interior is very good, the mechanicals will be very good, it's service history is very good. It's currently getting engine-out timing and harnesses work. The paint is very thin on top, hood, and trunk. Once he's done, it'll be cheap to buy.

    Now, I also come from 'the Porsche world', and those guys love to create R versions. They hop up motors, tighten suspensions, enlarge brakes, lighten chassis/body. Make a hot rod of sorts while keeping true to the Porsche ethos. Not for purists, I understand, but not blasphemy either. Improving the car while retaining a modified, factory look.

    If funds were unlimited, how could one make a 500R while keeping it very driveable and true to the MB ethos? I wouldn't want a track car, just a greatly improved, semi-crazy weekend driver. Again, money no object.

    Thoughts? What would it take specifically, in your opinion? 6-speed manual? Carbon fiber hood/trunk? 14" brakes? Stripping the sound insulation? I'm not saying I'm going to do it, I'm just wondering how crazy and good it could be made while not losing the ability to drive it in 100 degree traffic when I get stuck in it.

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    E500E Guru KarlC's Avatar
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Is that you Brian, from BenzWorld, out of TX ?

    I'll start and there are some threads on this topic already.....

    - First gear start - Not going to make it faster, just more fun to drive around town.

    - Light weight wheels and Tires

    - Remove the spare and tool kit

    - NOS kit - best bang for the buck
    1993 500E - 040 / 271 - Porsche Type 2758 ~~~~ 1971 250C Ivory / Cognac Leather

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    It's me.

    - Agreed on 1st gear start
    - Lighter everywhere would be a necessity. Did this to our w124 race car and was very noticeable.
    - NOS too cheap, easy, and temporary. I'm a naturally aspirated guy, if I can help it. But not sure more drastic power really necessary outside of cams and exhaust. A manual tranny ought to wake it up considerably.

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    E500E Guru KarlC's Avatar
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by Pos View Post
    It's me.

    .
    I seem to recall you finding a few 500E 's for other people, what's making you want one now ?
    1993 500E - 040 / 271 - Porsche Type 2758 ~~~~ 1971 250C Ivory / Cognac Leather

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    True to MB ethos would not include lightening so you are really making it more of a Porsche.

    I don't know how much lightness you can add in this case, but I'd be surprised if you got it below 3500 pounds.
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    So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I mean, while keeping it comfortable.
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    True to MB ethos would not include lightening so you are really making it more of a Porsche.

    I don't know how much lightness you can add in this case, but I'd be surprised if you got it below 3500 pounds.
    Agreed. There really isn't THAT much you can do to lighten the car, unless you want to remove spare tires, rear seats, and go from there. But that starts getting radical pretty quick. Several of us have done this type of stuff for drag racing.

    Much better just to add power, and that is done through increased displacement, forced induction, or nitrous oxide. Hans Richter, the owner/proprietor of Texas-German Autohaus in Houston (Greenway area), owns a supercharged 1993 500E. I just saw Hans one week ago tonight and talked to him about his car. He designed and adapted/installed the Albrex system himself (I've documented it photographically elsewhere on this site) and he told me it's his daily driver - now up to 278K miles.

    I asked him about HP. Doesn't sound like he's dyno'd it but he did say that is definitely has well over 450HP at the crank.

    For reference, my E500 had a dyno-confirmed 100HP + 100 lb-ft increase using the BergWerks nitrous-oxide system. Of course, that power is only available in very short doses, as compared to supercharging.



    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlC View Post
    I seem to recall you finding a few 500E 's for other people, what's making you want one now ?
    Opportunity. The desire of a modern-classic. The want of something fast. Not sure if the car in my original post is the best candidate, but it's available and would be cheap, considering the others out there.

    I'm surprised a supercharger fits, and I'd forgotten about Hans' car. I've met him and seen the car. That plus a 6-speed would be quite fun. With those two, you're correct about not needing to lighten so much. Crazy lighter brakes with the lightest wheels possible would help the unsprung weight considerably.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    You can't go any lighter on the brakes unless you don't mind hitting things. The 500E's (especially the ones built mid-93 and earlier) already have undersize brakes that don't work well over ~100mph. If you want to increase power to weight ratio, I wouldn't look to save weight on the brakes.

    The six-speed manual question has been beat to death, nobody has ever done it (AFAIK) besides the one neon blue RENNtech car. As Spock said... "having is not always so pleasing a thing as wanting". I'm still not convinced a manual transmission would be all that much fun to drive, at least on the street. Maybe for a track-only car. But OMG, what work. Lousy ROI, at least IMO.

    BTW: The 500E weighs right around 3900 lbs with an empty tank of fuel, and a bit over 4000 lbs with a full tank (without occupants). Gutting the interior & trunk will shave maybe 400 lbs tops, if you just leave the driver seat in there.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Doing a supercharger or rear mount twin turbo would be cool.

    Why can't we get a group buy going and work one of these out ?

    The BMW guys have done it
    1993 500E - 040 / 271 - Porsche Type 2758 ~~~~ 1971 250C Ivory / Cognac Leather

    Past Cars - 1994 E500 - 2003 CL600 V12TT by SPEEDRIVEN - 1994 E500 - 1995 E320 Cab - 1988 BMW M6 - 1994 E320 Cab

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I think there are more performance enthusiasts among BMW owners (also the ATO [asshat-to-owner] ratio is MUCH higher among BMW owners) than we have in the Benz world (that's NOT Benzworld, mind y'all ... that forum sucks). Heck, we couldn't even get 10 folks to pony up for the BergWerks nitrous kits at $2K apiece.....

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    They had a thing on the news recently about BMW drivers. It is now a documented fact that the BMW owners have the worst ATO ratio of any brand/make of vehicle.

    I would add that in my own experience Dodge truck drivers are a close second.

    We really did our best with that N2O buy. I had a thread on Scott's old site and on MercedesShop, and the Sauceman had a thread on one of the other Benz sites. Our thinking was to include and involve ALL M119 W124 owners, not just 036 owners. That way (the thinking went) we would be able to meet our quota. Even with us including the 034 owners, it STILL didn't happen. (Only ONE 034 owner bit.)

    It's sad really because the Benzes can and do kick the BMW's butts if only the Benz owners are willing to make the effort.

    Regards,
    Eric
    Last edited by 400Eric; 11-19-2013 at 10:39 PM.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Did I miss the NOS group buy? I must have been drivin' my M5.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I will give the E34 M5 one thing: It's better looking

    Regards,
    Eric

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlC View Post
    Doing a supercharger or rear mount twin turbo would be cool.

    Why can't we get a group buy going and work one of these out ?

    The BMW guys have done it
    Rotrex C38-91,compact and efficient inter cooler,...

    Would start development in a heart beat if there would be a market.

    Unfortunately,from my experience with our own charger kits,quite many have to be sold to break even with R&D costs.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I would be down with a SC group buy...
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by tanger View Post
    I would be down with a SC group buy...

    Would be nice if a GB would happen....
    Not likely,though....
    Last edited by 036/199; 11-20-2013 at 05:30 AM.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    .
    Weight savings, tuning, transmission upgrades etc..., a number of threads has been posted here on the "High-Performance Modifications" sub forum over time, so quite some info is here already.

    As for the SC group-buy ideas, I would say that is space dreams, sorry. I have the rear shortened RDMtek LCA group-buy fresh in mind where we hardly managed the minimum 10 committed buyers to kick off the production run. At the end about 15 sets were sold, and out of those I bought 4 sets to Norway. This was a part to approx. $320, a SC kit would be at least 50 times more, so go figure on how to run that group-buy. Be realistic, so my proposal is to monitore the interest on the forum based on what the individual person really say, then start PM'ing between the most relevant persons, next is to contact someone who really CAN PROVIDE a plug & play SC-kit. Finally team-up, make commitments, and show up the money. And please don't bring the "ROI ghost" into this, it is shot anyway, and what's the point in supercharging the car and then sell it?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    As Spock said... "having is not always so pleasing a thing as wanting".
    True spoken IMO, but I would say - people will be happy with supercharging - it is fun - and the life doesn't go in reply mode you know.
    Last edited by 500AMM; 11-22-2013 at 08:15 AM.
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by Pos View Post
    I've been an MB regular for a long time. I'm considering buying a 1992 500E that a local mechanic has. It's got $127k miles on it, the interior is very good, the mechanicals will be very good, it's service history is very good. It's currently getting engine-out timing and harnesses work. The paint is very thin on top, hood, and trunk. Once he's done, it'll be cheap to buy.

    Now, I also come from 'the Porsche world', and those guys love to create R versions. They hop up motors, tighten suspensions, enlarge brakes, lighten chassis/body. Make a hot rod of sorts while keeping true to the Porsche ethos. Not for purists, I understand, but not blasphemy either. Improving the car while retaining a modified, factory look.

    If funds were unlimited, how could one make a 500R while keeping it very driveable and true to the MB ethos? I wouldn't want a track car, just a greatly improved, semi-crazy weekend driver. Again, money no object.

    Thoughts? What would it take specifically, in your opinion? 6-speed manual? Carbon fiber hood/trunk? 14" brakes? Stripping the sound insulation? I'm not saying I'm going to do it, I'm just wondering how crazy and good it could be made while not losing the ability to drive it in 100 degree traffic when I get stuck in it.
    Hello Brian,

    You may have seen the worst of the worst modifying a 500E from the now gone Team Spaso Racing website? I recall seeing a English spoken European forum about it some place, but I don't find it right now. However, here is another Swedish forum about it:
    http://www.zatzy.com/projekt/268056-...-500e-rwr.html

    The first owner sold the project in pieces, but here is the new owner, Swedish this one too;
    http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?...er=asc&start=0

    And for sale again since February 2013;
    http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86090&highlight=

    Enjoy!

    (this car started as stock 500E in good running condition, I fear it will slowly disappear in pieces)
    Last edited by 500AMM; 11-20-2013 at 06:06 AM.
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Yeah, wow, what a project that thing was Arnt. Perhaps you should finish it ? No doubt you would do it rightly.

    Well, here's my 2 cents.

    Losing the sad 4 speed transmission for a 6 speed manual would do wonders for the car. That would prolly lighten it up a good bit too.

    Look at the Sauber Team twin turbo M119 for inspiration for truly large power and torque gains...of course, money would be of no matter. I'm sure someone creative could make it work in the engine bay that we were given. Just an nice over-bore could do it well also.

    The rest like brakes , suspension, exhaust, LSD etc can be easier mods.
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    "- Remove the spare and tool kit",

    FYI. The spare tire is part of the load distribution/structure in the event of a rear end crash. Having it removed should only be for the race track.


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by Maui View Post
    Did I miss the NOS group buy? I must have been drivin' my M5.
    It was back in mid-2010, I believe. However I can't find the forum thread... might have been lost during the site outage back then? Justin's results are posted here.


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 036/199 View Post
    Rotrex C38-91,compact and efficient inter cooler,...

    Would start development in a heart beat if there would be a market.

    Unfortunately,from my experience with our own charger kits,quite many have to be sold to break even with R&D costs.
    As Jerry pointed out in post #7 the R&D for the SC has been done already, all we need is some info sharing and a group buy.

    I'm not saying it would be ez or that enuf people would step up and do it, but its been done so if we can get the info we need the hard part it already worked out.
    Last edited by KarlC; 11-20-2013 at 09:08 AM.
    1993 500E - 040 / 271 - Porsche Type 2758 ~~~~ 1971 250C Ivory / Cognac Leather

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    The site outage (where we lost a bit of info) was in July, 2009. 500Eboard was only 8 months old then. I had to restore from scratch (using Google cache to recreate lost threads) and at the same time, made the transition to the 500Espot domain.

    We transitioned back to the 500Eboard domain, and migrated from phpBB to the vBulletin platform, in July of 2011 if I remember correctly.

    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...ull=1#post8160

    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...ll=1#post10004

    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...ll=1#post10140

    It appears, per the following thread, that the BergWerks Nitrous Group Buy happened in the 2009/2010 time frame. http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...Nitrous-Anyone

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    The Albrex supecharger kit is still available for sale new, I believe, but the ~$13k USD pricetag has killed interest (along with the lack of reliable dyno information showing real-world gains from the kit). Even if a group buy would get it down to $10k (which I think is optimistic), I can't see more than 2 or 3 people ponying up. I believe Arnt had checked into pricing & availability not that long ago.

    Note that the TGA car in Gerry's photo also has reduced compression ratio (shaved pistons?) which moves beyond the realm of DIY bolt-on, and would drastically increase installation costs. Personally, I'd want to retain stock compression ratio and an otherwise stock engine. Peak power would be less (higher compression = less boost) but installation should be mostly bolt-on.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    The site outage (where we lost a bit of info) was in July, 2009. 500Eboard was only 8 months old then. I had to restore from scratch (using Google cache to recreate lost threads) and at the same time, made the transition to the 500Espot domain.
    Do you mean transition from Espot to Eboard....?


    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    It appears, per the following thread, that the BergWerks Nitrous Group Buy happened in the 2009/2010 time frame. http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...Nitrous-Anyone
    Justin received his kit in late summer 2010, so I think Eric's post from 2009 is what prompted the initial interest in the GB during early 2010, with kits delivered in summer 2010 (approx). Maybe the thread was on a different forum? I'd swear there was extended discussion about this.


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Do you mean transition from Espot to Eboard....?
    No, my original statement was correct.

    Remember, when this site first came up in November 2008, it was 500Eboard.com. Then, at the time of the site outage in late June/early July 2009 (right as I got home from the Euro Tour), I started over with the 500Espot.com domain. I was able to recreate about 25% of the content at that time, on top of a new phpBB installation mapped to the new domain.

    At the time we transitioned to the vBulletin 4.X platform, I simultaneously transitioned BACK to the 500Eboard.com domain. This was in July of 2011. I had run three distinct test migrations of the phpBB 500Espot site into vBulletin during the preceding 1-1.5 years, for practice and experience before performing the final migration, which turned out to be successful. At that time, we had 600-plus members, less than 25% of the current total.

    I seem to recall Steve Lemberg making a number of posts about the BergWerks nitrous redux availability. Those must have been among the lost posts that weren't in the Google cache. Either that, or they were discussed on Scott's forum, which didn't go down "for good" until I believe perhaps late in 2011. 500Ecstasy was spotty in late 2008 (there was a period of 3-4 months through the summer of 2008 when it wasn't up at all, which was the final trigger that caused me to light up 500Eboard) and up and down at various points in 2009.

    Remember, I had given you and Glen a private preview into 500Eboard during 2008, as it was waiting in the wings to be activated.


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    "Enjoy!

    (this car started as stock 500E in good running condition, I fear it will slowly disappear in pieces)"

    Yet Another example of, if you go over the Top, it's all downhill.

    If THAT thing ever was or will be Rolling by any motor of it's own. What would it be called? not a 500E anyway, hope they
    finally put it to rest. I wonder if it still is by it's WDB registered and counted in the actual ammount of 036es.

    This Project I saw as Stillborn from the beginning, can't say I'm sorry. Roger
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Thinking about this more, it might be fun to build a true "R" version. If you could find a car with a completely trashed interior, bad paint, and maybe needing some body work...where it wouldn't make too much sense restoring it, that would be a perfect candidate.

    Strip the interior completely, install lightweight racing seat, harness and roll cage. Ditch the SLS and associated plumbing. Make CF hood, trunk, front fenders. Replace the roof skin/sunroof with a CF panel.

    Basically, this would destroy the essence of an E500E but it would make for one bad-ass V8 sedan

    Of course, you could also do this with a run of the mill 300E and drop in an LSx/6-speed instead...stealthier and way faster!

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Of course, you could also do this with a run of the mill 300E and drop in an LSx/6-speed instead...stealthier and way faster!
    Here's a 190E that most of the way done.... (NOT my car)

    http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv...02319451.htmlI

    I am just testing the waters, I am in no hurry about possibly having to sell my baby. So here is some info on the car its a

    1984 Mercedes 190E.
    Its silver and gray with gray leather interior.
    The car is powered by a 5.0 out of a 1994 ford mustang gt coupled to a four speed s-rod transmission.
    The rear end as well as the rest of the suspension is out of a 300E Mercedes except for the rear sway bar that is stock 190E.
    The front bumper is off of a 2.3 16 valve it has euro Bosch head lights clear corners and smoked tail lights.

    Its smogged and registered but it still has a few issues

    The paint needs to be rear cleared the rear passenger side window needs a new cable system to work and I am replacing the carrier baring in the tail housing as you read this other than that is a really fun car to drive with incredible handeling capability and has no problems chasing down new M3's. IF I sell it I am asking 6000.00 or trade for a Harley or possibly some other cool car let me know what you have but remember I am in no hurry to get rod of it if I don't have to but it might be a last resort.
    1993 500E - 040 / 271 - Porsche Type 2758 ~~~~ 1971 250C Ivory / Cognac Leather

    Past Cars - 1994 E500 - 2003 CL600 V12TT by SPEEDRIVEN - 1994 E500 - 1995 E320 Cab - 1988 BMW M6 - 1994 E320 Cab

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I inquired with Albrex and got no response.

    Are you sure they are still available? For reference, a guy I work with is shelling out $10k for his 2007 vette supercharger kit.

    I also talked with TGA about what he did and how long the project took. I did disassemble the engine, port matched, cleaned up head/pistons to reduce compression slightly (9.5:1). He said he as zero knock issues w pump premium.

    I was wanting some feed back from Albrex on how their kit works on a 6.0 liter. So if TGA has 450 hp, then 20% is 540 hp ir ~450 rwhp. At that power level, maybe pistons and rods need upgrading?

    Gerry did Hartmut have an information on the AMG racing stuff with M119's?

    How large/small of a company was AMG before being sold to Mercedes? Was that just the retirement point for the owners?

    Michael

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    E500E Guru KarlC's Avatar
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    To bad we cant get a kit like this, 120+ hp for $6000

    http://vf-engineering.com/other-bmw/bmw-540740/
    1993 500E - 040 / 271 - Porsche Type 2758 ~~~~ 1971 250C Ivory / Cognac Leather

    Past Cars - 1994 E500 - 2003 CL600 V12TT by SPEEDRIVEN - 1994 E500 - 1995 E320 Cab - 1988 BMW M6 - 1994 E320 Cab

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Thinking about this more, it might be fun to build a true "R" version. If you could find a car with a completely trashed interior, bad paint, and maybe needing some body work...where it wouldn't make too much sense restoring it, that would be a perfect candidate.

    Strip the interior completely, install lightweight racing seat, harness and roll cage. Ditch the SLS and associated plumbing. Make CF hood, trunk, front fenders. Replace the roof skin/sunroof with a CF panel.

    Basically, this would destroy the essence of an E500E but it would make for one bad-ass V8 sedan

    Of course, you could also do this with a run of the mill 300E and drop in an LSx/6-speed instead...stealthier and way faster!
    Dropping in anything non-MB would kill the ethos. I like the R-version of the idea - it'd cost a lot, but it'd have to be inbetween a totally stripped out shell and the tourer it currently is. They money should be spent on crazy engine stuff, a manual tranny, improve brakes/wheels/suspension, and perhaps some carbon fiber hood/trunk/other pieces to lighten the load. The interior could be stripped down some and replaced with leather-lined expensive-ass, but lightweight, racing seats. I don't think that destroys the essence of the 500E, it just strips away some of the BS to illustrate the powerful sedan that it is.

    Worth it? Who knows. It'd cost a lot, but it'd be the only one. Probably fun as hell to drive too. All this was an exercise to see what it would take to earn an "R" badge on a 500E.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    The Swedes Went way way over the top here..

    Gentlemen, Its a W124 500E/500E.. you can't turn it into something else. To me (although I respect the quality of components and craftsmanship used) this is no difference than the crystal/angel eyes ,100 AMG decals and fake parts garbage we see often in other regions in the world. They are all trying to make this car something it isn't.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    HEY! Those 100 fake decals are worth 1mph each, at least! That means with decals alone, the 036 should hit 255mph vMax!!


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    HEY! Those 100 fake decals are worth 1mph each, at least! That means with decals alone, the 036 should hit 255mph vMax!!

    Yes, I see you have A LOT of personal experience with burdening your vehicle with those speed-enhancing adhesives .....





    BUZZINGA

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    The idea of the Swedish project is interesting,but should have used a regular W124 for that.

    A modern day interpretation of the AMG 300SEL 6.8 based on a .036 is what I would go for.
    Stripped out,high output n/a M119,manual gearbox,LSD,brake and suspension upgrades.

    We should discuss the supercharger matter in a new thread.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    It was back in mid-2010, I believe. However I can't find the forum thread... might have been lost during the site outage back then? Justin's results are posted here.

    It's because, as I said, the thread was on Scott's old site: 500Ecstasy. You do remember that site don't you?


    Regards,
    Eric
    Last edited by 400Eric; 11-21-2013 at 03:32 AM.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post

    It appears, per the following thread, that the BergWerks Nitrous Group Buy happened in the 2009/2010 time frame. http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...Nitrous-Anyone
    WOW Uncle Gerry, that was the first thread I ever started on this site! I didn't even know how to properly do quotes back then!

    I had completely forgotten that I had started a thread on this topic over here.

    Geeze, I didn't even get a response to that thread, much less any actual participation in the N2O group buy. And that's even with the supplier lowering the GB threshold from ten down to only FIVE! (I had forgotten about that too!) Add in the price difference between N2O and supercharging........ Well, all I can say is a sincere "Good Luck". I honestly would love to see it happen, cause I'd love to see 036s deflating the too big egos of the newer BMW owners, but I'm doubtful it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Justin received his kit in late summer 2010, so I think Eric's post from 2009 is what prompted the initial interest in the GB during early 2010, with kits delivered in summer 2010 (approx). Maybe the thread was on a different forum? I'd swear there was extended discussion about this.

    There was...... on Scott's old site. It was lively and even humorous, but ultimately unproductive.

    Do you remember when I posted the smiley of the guy cutting a fart, causing the smiley next to him to pass out? And then I posted "Get N20. It's a gas!"
    I also posted the three rules of racing with N2O:
    Cheat, cheat cheat and be hard to beat.
    If you can't beat 'em, cheat 'em.
    Those who cheat, eat.

    Quote Originally Posted by 036/199 View Post
    We should discuss the supercharger matter in a new thread.
    Including a supercharger in this discussion of a theoretical 500R is valid because:

    1) MANY factory Hot Rods these days are supercharged
    2) If you want to be competitive with said cars you need to be boosted too.
    3) Many later factory Hot Rod Mercedes Benzes were/are S/Ced or Turboed. (Turbocharging is my personal preference.)
    4) Just like the E55, if the 036 were being built today, it likely would already be boosted.
    5) A video is worth 10,000 words. In this one, the Sauceman's N2O assisted 036 is being thoroughly spanked by a E55 which again, is factory S/Ced. (It's the last race in the video.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVLWxpijrBM

    If you meant a S/C group buy should be discussed in another new thread then yes, it should, but again, good luck.

    Regards,
    Eric
    Last edited by 400Eric; 11-21-2013 at 07:44 AM.

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    Senior Member 126v8's Avatar
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    There was something about swapping a 5 speed auto into the .036.Anybody tried it?

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    The Albrex supecharger kit is still available for sale new, I believe, but the ~$13k USD pricetag has killed interest (along with the lack of reliable dyno information showing real-world gains from the kit). Even if a group buy would get it down to $10k (which I think is optimistic), I can't see more than 2 or 3 people ponying up. I believe Arnt had checked into pricing & availability not that long ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    I inquired with Albrex and got no response.

    Are you sure they are still available? For reference, a guy I work with is shelling out $10k for his 2007 vette supercharger kit.

    I was wanting some feed back from Albrex on how their kit works on a 6.0 liter. So if TGA has 450 hp, then 20% is 540 hp ir ~450 rwhp. At that power level, maybe pistons and rods need upgrading?

    Michael
    To my knowledge is the Albrex kit fully available upon request - just as all the other orders at Albrex. But Mr.Gruber appears to be very slow on Emails.
    http://www.albrex.com/german/

    I recently inquired for a overhaul of my SC and the cost is €1.100 ex.VAT + shipping. He need 2 weeks for the job.

    I've also put up and enclosed a copy & paste of a Albrex offer on an E420 W210 here in Norway. This offer is quite representative for the 036 due to the narrow spacing in the engine bay. €12.800 = $17.300 ex.VAT + shipping. Austria has 20% VAT which is omitted on export.

    FYI I've enclosed the sales prospect from my SuperMerc when it was for sale at Rusconi & Ulz Autotechnik in Zürich. That pospect is from the time the PO acquired the car. The differential cooling was not in place when I bought the car. No hardcopy from the Dyno available, but the power is quite close to what Michael wrote here.
    CHF 260.000 = € 210.900 = $ 285.100

    -a-
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 126v8 View Post
    There was something about swapping a 5 speed auto into the .036.Anybody tried it?
    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...for-older-cars

    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...6536#post46536
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 126v8 View Post
    There was something about swapping a 5 speed auto into the .036.Anybody tried it?
    There is a guy who calls himself Whipplem104 who used to be active on the old site who is very knowledgeable on this swap. I don't know if he's here though. He is (or at least was the last time I checked) still active on MercedesShop.

    It's too costly and labor intensive to be worth it. IIRC, even Dave, who enjoys spending money on his cars more than most folks, said the ROI isn't worth it.

    Edit: Never mind. Just look at the first link in the post above mine. I was still typing my post when he posted the link.
    The second link is about manual trans bellhousings.

    Regards,
    Eric
    Last edited by 400Eric; 11-21-2013 at 07:58 AM.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    There is a guy who calls himself Whipplem104 who used to be active on the old site who is very knowledgeable on this swap. I don't know if he's here though. He is (or at least was the last time I checked) still active on MercedesShop.
    See my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    It's too costly and labor intensive to be worth it. IIRC, even Dave, who enjoys spending money on his cars more than most folks, said the ROI isn't worth it.

    Regards,
    Eric
    Eric - the "ROI ghost" is not relevant to bring along in this thread. I have still not seen anyone getting back their money on extensive tuned objects. It is money for the fun - Hurra!
    Arnt
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  45. #45
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Arnt.

    If the power difference between a 500E and an E60 is 381-326= 55 (more like 82 according to some sources) is it safe to assume the supercharger kit can bring the power level to about 500PS on a 500E ? What do you think ?

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 500AMM View Post
    See my previous post.
    See my edit.


    Quote Originally Posted by 500AMM View Post
    Eric - the "ROI ghost" is not relevant to bring along in this thread. I have still not seen anyone getting back their money on extensive tuned objects. It is money for the fun - Hurra!
    In the context that I use "ROI" and I'm pretty sure Dave as well, we mean bang received for dollars spent, or in other words performance/fuel economy/coolness/etc, etc. gained for dollars spent.

    Another way to look at it is the money spent on that trans swap could instead be spent on something else that will net an even bigger gain.

    Regards,
    Eric

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    See my edit.
    We prolly posted within the same minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    In the context that I use "ROI" and I'm pretty sure Dave as well, we mean bang received for dollars spent, or in other words performance/fuel economy/coolness/etc, etc. gained for dollars spent.

    Regards,
    Eric
    OK, I understand seen that way too.
    And the 036 seems to be quite cost demanding in that regard.

    -a-
    Arnt
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 500AMM View Post
    And the 036 seems to be quite cost demanding in that regard.

    -a-
    Arnt, Truer words were never spoken!

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 195910 View Post
    Arnt.

    If the power difference between a 500E and an E60 is 381-326= 55 (more like 82 according to some sources) is it safe to assume the supercharger kit can bring the power level to about 500PS on a 500E ? What do you think ?
    The König-Specials kit doesn't deliver over 500hp on a 5.0, scroll midway down: http://www.koenig-specials.com/homep...20englisch.htm

    Supercharger engine, based V8 500 SL (5.5 + 6.0 ltr.)

    • up to 331 KW / 440 HP/ 680 NM
    • up to 382 KW / 520 PS / 730 NM (5.5 and 6.0 ltr.)
    • increased performance depending on gear ratio

    IIRC they do/did not use intercooling. I guess that could be the reason for the alleged 580Hp in my 6.0. Despite my A/A (air to air) intercooler is quite small, far too small for a 6.0, but everything helps I guess.
    Arnt
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  50. #50
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Yes, I see you have A LOT of personal experience with burdening your vehicle with those speed-enhancing adhesives .....

    BUZZINGA
    LOL. Yes, yes I do. That's my wife's race car, btw. The window decals are required for competition, the rear fender decals are NHRA contingency decals (as in, cash payout for either a win or runner-up at divisional/national, NHRA-officiated events). The only "decorative" decal on our cars is the small one in the rear door triangle window for our club, which won its third championship this year (my wife was the club points leader, btw... also had the most individual points of anyone in the entire Club Challenge).

    That said, the rear decals, two per side, add up to a total of +4mph. Easily.


  51. #51
    E500E Guru need2speed's Avatar
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Decals? They need to improve the adhesives
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by need2speed View Post
    Decals? They need to improve the adhesives
    Awesome photo, Dean.


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I still say rear mount is the way to go...more power returned per PSI dumped in.

    We'll be doing a .6 conversion on a 107...once I become familar with the software etc I would Very much like to do an 036. I would do the track rat but it's looking like that will become a Lemons car in short order..and that's a pricey mod..

    I will say, adding a quaife was the BEST bang for the buck in modifying this car... she also responded well to more spring and austin's camber plates but that's a different story. Ditching SLS and fan clutch helps claw back some HP as well..

    jono
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Yes, rear mount turbo is the way to go.

    And yes, ditching the mechanical fan, and letting electric fans do the job instead is also a smart move.

    I know I should know this but I'm sleep deprived right now........ What is "SLS"?

  55. #55
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    Yes, rear mount turbo is the way to go.
    The ROI and ease of installation is most promising with remote mounts, but routing the tube up front with adequate ground clearance may be a challenge, even with an oval tube. Also, this would likely require moving to standalone ECU (ditching LH, and also losing ABS, ASR, and cruise control). All acceptable for track-only, but not an option for a street car, for me anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    And yes, ditching the mechanical fan, and letting electric fans do the job instead is also a smart move.
    For track use only, that's an option. The factory Sachs/Horton disengages over 3500rpm anyway, and shouldn't re-engage until below 3000. On the track, with the revs kept up, the clutch would be disengaged most of the time. Don't expect much, if any, real-world power gains here.


    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    I know I should know this but I'm sleep deprived right now........ What is "SLS"?
    SLS = Self Leveling System. Minor weight loss from removing the hydrualics, minor power gain from switching to standard (non-tandem) PS pump. Again, this is a track-only mod.



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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    I think LH can handle 7 lbs...I wonder what can be done fuel wise w/ different/adjustable pressure regs...

    I will say, the engine will pick up w/ just a touch more alacrity w/ the fan clutch ditched.

    I remember reading that on the 190 16V's the SLS pump would suck over 5HP under Load.

    Oh, I'll also say urethane filled engine mounts and a filled trans mount makes the car Snapier under foot...it's nice off the line

    jono
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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    SLS = Self Leveling System. Minor weight loss from removing the hydrualics, minor power gain from switching to standard (non-tandem) PS pump. Again, this is a track-only mod.


    Oh yeah, I knew that!

    You forgot one more benefit: SLS deletion equals fewer headaches. In that light, it sounds like a worthwhile mod.

    Regards,
    Eric

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    You forgot one more benefit: SLS deletion equals fewer headaches. In that light, it sounds like a worthwhile mod.
    Just get a non-ASR 400E. Even fewer problems!


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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    LOL! But still too many for me though!

    I've got to be honest with you, I'm enjoying the hell out of this new to me 92 300E. I've always been impressed with what a sweet all around car my 89 300E is, imagine what a revelation this new one that has over 100,000 fewer miles is to me!

    Regards,
    Eric
    Last edited by 400Eric; 11-22-2013 at 12:33 PM.

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    Re: So let's say I wanted to make a 500R

    Quote Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
    I've got to be honest with you, I'm enjoying the hell out of this new to me 92 300E. I've always been impressed with what a sweet all around car my 89 300E is, imagine what a revelation this new one that has over 100,000 fewer miles is to me!
    This I can't understand. As an ex-owner of an 86 and 90 300E, I have direct experience with them, along with the 400E/E420. The 034 has better than 50% more power and gets BETTER fuel economy than the 300E! And, you don't need to pull the cylinder head off for a rebuild every ~200kmi to cure an oil drinking problem on the M119. And the 034's air conditioning works better. And there's no pesky manual belt tensioner on the 93-up M119. Etc, etc. Yet you are "impressed" with the 300E.

    What color is the sky in your world, Eric? Just curious...


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