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Thread: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

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    Russian_Rocket Roma_500E's Avatar
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    Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Regarding ATF fluid I would go with the Redline D4. Thanx Dave he posted here on board sometime ago how good is this oil and my brand new tranny is currently with the Redline d4.
    Do not use Mobil ATF, good brand but looks like it does not fit/work good for our old tranny.
    Also do not use OE MB fluid it is not suitable for our tranny as well. The good dealer will tell you that the bad (stupid) will put it in your tranny.
    Somebody uses Valvoline but I would not do that cuz it sounds cheap and not trustworthy.

    How is your R (reverse) on the transmission ? usually it gets bad at this mileage.
    Never heard about Castol ATF but it should be good if Gerry approved that otherwise you can always charge him for failure of your tranny

    At 200 000 you are looking at lots maintenance if you really want to bring it back to good shape Do not think I am saying it is high mileage that is why it needs lots of repairs. Basically all cars with 100 000+ at this time due to age need lots of attention to be in a great shape. There is also famous "Gerry's rule of 5K" which is really true too.
    Last edited by Roma_500E; 07-15-2014 at 11:44 PM.
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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Castrol Transmax ATF makes a Dex III spec "High Mileage" ATF in addition to their normal ATF. Both are easy to get at places like Autozone, etc.

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Dare I post that I've had OE Mercedes 236.14 ATF in my reman MB transmission for 3 years. Perfect performance.

    Used transmissions should stick with a Dexron III fluid though. As Dave says, Redline has excellent specs
    Last edited by clarkz71; 07-18-2014 at 06:29 AM.

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    Russian_Rocket Roma_500E's Avatar
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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Dare I post that I've had OE Mercedes 236.14 ATF in my reman MB transmission for 3 years. Perfect performance.

    Used transmissions should stick with a Dexron III fluid though. As Dave says, Redline has excellent specs

    Chain-Yank Master
    Not sure what your fluid is based on number but the one which is currently at MB dealer is not suitable. I belive folks here said that and even dealer guys confirmed that to me.
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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post
    Not sure what your fluid is based on number but the one which is currently at MB dealer is not suitable. I belive folks here said that and even dealer guys confirmed that to me.
    Let just say I'm a 30 year Mercedes technician, I know what I'm doing, and leave it at that.

    Mercedes "has approved 236.10 and 236.12" fluids for use in 722.3 transmissions per WIS

    I'm using the newest version of those which is 236.14

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Current specification sheet showing what fluid are approved for 722.3 and well as .4 and .5 4 & 5 speeds

    236.10 and 236.12 are the MB fluid for 97 - 2010 transmissions


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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    It is wise ........ not to argue with my Apprentice Lord Vader.

    His command of the facts is beyond dispute.


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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500


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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Timely discussion on ATFs. I arrived in Virginia to bring the car home to MA to find the transmission fluid low on the dipstick. Local parts store only had Vavoline dextron 4. Doesn't that supercede dextron 3, so I can use it? I have to change transmission filter and fluid when the car gets home, so short term am I ok to use it?

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Dexron-III (3) was replaced by Dexron-VI (6). The newer stuff is thinner viscosity and is technically backwards-compatible and ok to use. In reality, there is a possibility you may encounter flaring on upshifts if you use the new/thinner stuff. In the short term, yes, it would be fine... and if your tranny shifts ok with the thin stuff in there, you can continue to use it if desired.


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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Let just say I'm a 30 year Mercedes technician,I know what I'm doing, and leave it at that.
    Mercedes "has approved 236.10 and 236.12" fluids for use in 722.3 transmissions per WIS

    I'm using the newest version of those which is 236.14
    Well, I am not trying to be mean to you but I ve never seen your car and cannot say how good you are. Could be the case you are very knowledgebale person but I cannot confirm that.

    Unfortunately I met lots of "super" mechanics that did very weird things to cars. So now there is only 1 person to me who really knows how the car works without ANY books, WIS or so. So based on his experience and knowledge he pick the proper oil fluid and so.

    Most of the ATF fluid will work and may be approved but very few works right.

    So I have to appreciate Dave who kindly shared his experience with the Redline.

    Just a reminder about Mercedes approvals. Mercedes claimed/approved lifetime fluid in 722.5 ? tranny (the one on 1997 CL500) . So somebody who is very good expert followed that and at low mileage I had to replace tranny becasue of the dirty fluid. Also please do not forget BMW approvals reagarding lifetime fluid in differential of Xi cars, engine oil at 18 000 miles and so on.
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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Dave and Gerry both know my abilities.

    I'm not going to debate this with a non technician with no factory training.

    I posted information from MB WIS showing it was APPROVED to use the new fluid.

    That should be enough for you.

    I don't think your "mean", just misinformed.

    AND I did say with a used transmssion is is best to stick with Daves recommendation of Redline D4.

    I hope this clears it up for you

    As far as how good I am, ask Dave or Gerry in a PM

    Chain-Yank Master

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Did I mention the new MB fluid has been in my new factory reman 722.366 for 3 years?

    Perfect operation in every way.
    Last edited by clarkz71; 07-18-2014 at 06:31 AM.

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post

    Just a reminder about Mercedes approvals. Mercedes claimed/approved lifetime fluid in 722.5 ? tranny (the one on 1997 CL500) .
    The lifetime fluid bullshit was only in the US as a marketing trick by MBUSA.

    The rest of the world used 40k OCI.

    Mercedes changed that policy in 2003 to the 40K OCI

    And it was the 722.6 NAG1

    Not the 722.5 transmission

    The "expert" that didn't change the fluid at 30-40k was no expert.

    It was well known amongst the better dealerships that was a farce and we recommended that customes did the service.


    Chain-Yank Master
    Last edited by clarkz71; 07-17-2014 at 04:19 AM.

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post
    Well, I am not trying to be mean to you but I ve never seen your car and cannot say how good you are. Could be the case you are very knowledgebale person but I cannot confirm that.
    Now you can say you've seen my car. 1993 400E

    My apologies to the OP for all the thread highjacking.



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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Dave and Gerry both know my abilities.

    I'm not going to debate this with a non technician with no factory training.

    I posted information from MB WIS showing it was APPROVED to use the new fluid.

    That should be enough for you.

    I don't think your "mean", just misinformed.

    AND I did say with a used transmssion is is best to stick with Daves recommendation of Redline D4.

    I hope this clears it up for you

    As far as how good I am, ask Dave or Gerry in a PM

    Chain-Yank Master
    I take it the D-4 is the recommended fluid for the trans in the E-420 also? Is the E-420 unit pretty much the same unit as the E-500? Looks like my 95K one owner E-420 has never been changed so that's on my ASAP to do list.
    Let me echo the caution on the Dextron VI spec fluid as it is also in the books recommended for the AW unit in my Volvo. I am running it in that unit now and the consistency of the fluid itself is thinner so in an older worn unit it can cause some issues. I would be very cautious using Dex VI in an older unit designed for Dex III because of this.
    Last edited by Ascension; 07-17-2014 at 07:42 AM.
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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    The D4 or the high temp Redline, both are Dex III spec

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    If you go with regular dino-base Dex III fluid I'd recommend a 25K interval .. 30K MAX. If you go with a higher quality synthetic like RedLine, you can go longer than 30K, perhaps 40K.

    The factory spec is 30K with the Dex II fluids available at the time these cars were new (and Dex III now). I had a situation (you can see here) with difficult shifting and it turned out to be old fluid. I think it had around 40K on it, which is far too high for dino-based ATF.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    If you go with regular dino-base Dex III fluid I'd recommend a 25K interval .. 30K MAX. If you go with a higher quality synthetic like RedLine, you can go longer than 30K, perhaps 40K.

    The factory spec is 30K with the Dex II fluids available at the time these cars were new (and Dex III now). I had a situation (you can see here) with difficult shifting and it turned out to be old fluid. I think it had around 40K on it, which is far too high for dino-based ATF.

    Cheers,
    Gerry
    What has likely saved my unit is that this car was driven so little and that use was spread out so much that it didn't bake the fluid. I can document by service records she was driven less that 40K in 12 years. It's not smelling that strongly and is now the honey color of new motor oil even though it has 95 K and has never been changed.
    Changing the fluid in the unit with the Redline D-4 will be the next step after the minor front end repairs ( left tie rod and damper) then alignment next week.
    Last edited by Ascension; 07-17-2014 at 07:52 AM.
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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    If you go with regular dino-base Dex III fluid I'd recommend a 25K interval .. 30K MAX. If you go with a higher quality synthetic like RedLine, you can go longer than 30K, perhaps 40K.
    Ditto what Gerry said. Dino fluid is pushing the limits by 30k under normal service, and factory spec is 15k with severe service (city driving, idling, towing, etc).

    Good synthetic ATF (D4, Amsoil, even M-1) can go substantially longer under normal service. With light service (almost all freeway miles) even 50-60k would be ok. This happened on my dad's 722.3 by accident and I was shocked that the trans still shifted flawlessly with 60k on the fluid (M-1) and the pan+fluid looked perfect. It was 60k of light service though. YMMV, yadda x3...


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    I only have Internet access for a few minutes so you guys will be mercifully spared any rants from me for a while. Regarding this transmission fluid thread: Clark's information is exactly right by the book and he's showing you the book. That's what I run in my transmissions after I "go through" them, and I would unhesitatingly use those new fluids in a transmission that is new or otherwise fully resealed. Dave's recommendations won't hurt a thing, and they may actually help, especially on older transmission, or one of unknown internal condition. On an older transmission or one of unknown condition, I also like some of these recent "high mileage" Dexron formulations just for the tiny bit of extra seal swellers in them.

    My big problem with all of this is the filters. I vote to get them the hell out of there by 30,000 miles no matter what you do with your fluid.


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Indeed, good post Colonel___

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Dexron-III (3) was replaced by Dexron-VI (6). The newer stuff is thinner viscosity and is technically backwards-compatible and ok to use. In reality, there is a possibility you may encounter flaring on upshifts if you use the new/thinner stuff. In the short term, yes, it would be fine... and if your tranny shifts ok with the thin stuff in there, you can continue to use it if desired.
    The cSt@100°C is in the 5's

    Like 5.8 or something, I would not use it in a 722.3

    GM recommends it in all their older transmissions, but we don't drive GM cars

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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    The cSt@100°C is in the 5's

    Like 5.8 or something, I would not use it in a 722.3

    GM recommends it in all their older transmissions, but we don't drive GM cars
    Correct. This is the basic reason why I prefer not to use the newer Dex-VI fluid in my 722.3 tranny. It's technically approved but I like the original stuff.


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    Re: 200,000 mile service 1994 E500

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Correct. This is the basic reason why I prefer not to use the newer Dex-VI fluid in my 722.3 tranny. It's technically approved but I like the original stuff.

    Your confusing Dexron VI with Mercedes 236.14

    The are not the same spec, and Dexron VI IS NOT MB approved

    Trust me on this one Dave

    Dexron VI came out in 2006, I know because I ordered it from the dealer for my Eldorado.

    236.14 is a totally different fluid and spec,
    you won't find it anywhere in the approved sheets below

    http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/236.10_en.html

    http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/236.12_en.html

    http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/236.14_en.html
    Last edited by clarkz71; 07-17-2014 at 10:25 AM.

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Right - MB spec is different than Dexron spec. Sorry for the confusion. Both Dex-VI and 236.12/236.14 are thinner viscosity than Dex-III or MB 236.10 (or older MB spec).


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    There ya go. That wasn't so hard...

    Chain-Yank Master

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    For those who dig this stuff, the MB "specified gear oils" which includes automatic trannies, is at this link:

    http://www.w124performance.com/docs/...231.1_2013.pdf

    See page 2. This is the document Clark posted a screen shot of back in post #6.


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    ...and I run Type F or B&M trick shift synthetic in most everything I have...Pushing 10 years now in my white 91 SEC.

    I'm a Big fan of the added Grab afforded by each.

    jono
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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    I only have Internet access for a few minutes so you guys will be mercifully spared any rants from me for a while.
    Regarding this transmission fluid thread: Clark's information is exactly right by the book and he's showing you the book.

    That's what I run in my transmissions after I "go through" them, and I would unhesitatingly use those new fluids in a transmission that is new or otherwise fully resealed.

    Dave's recommendations won't hurt a thing, and they may actually help, especially on older transmission, or one of unknown internal condition.


    Looks like we have 2 Mercedes technicians running the new MB 236.14 fluid in 722.3 transmissions with great results.

    On fresh transmssions, like my new MB remanufactured 722.366 I recommend it, or a reman Sun Valley

    As I said above, used or worn transmissions should stick with the older spec Dexron III

    Dave's opinion on Dexron VI is valid, since he actually tried it in his car.

    He never however tried the MB fluid, as such cannot make a judgement on it's performance like Klink and myself.

    I have 3 years under my belt with the MB fluid and I hammer my car.

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    I was always amazed how some people trust books or instrcutions ....

    Anyway , totally unexperienced, untrained and uneducated guy (me) claims that best option so far for 722.3 tranny is Redline D4
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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    ...and I run Type F or B&M trick shift synthetic in most everything I have...Pushing 10 years now in my white 91 SEC.

    I'm a Big fan of the added Grab afforded by each.

    jono
    Please read the attached PDF.

    Commercial TO-4 fluid gives the "grab" of Type F, and has all the special additives for drivetrain longevity. SWEPCO 714 20wt is the "hot ticket" for Porsche 928 automatic tranny's, because it is a TO-4 fluid, and the 928 automatic is 90+% our 036 tranny.

    Since 2002, I've been alternating between SWEPCO and Petro-Canada (great exchange rate) TO-4 fluid, and have good success and longevity.

    neil

    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/atta...5&d=1398703571

    Excerpt:
    Transmission fluids for passenger cars may be divided into two groups: those that
    contain friction modifiers, and those that do not. Friction modifiers are special additives
    that make the fluid more “slippery” under certain operating conditions. Until the
    mid-1970’s, Ford produced transmissions with relatively small frictional surfaces. The
    bands and clutches had to be applied quickly with high pressure to prevent overheating
    and wear caused by excessive slippage. This required a non-friction-modified fluid with
    a higher static coefficient of friction than dynamic coefficient of friction.

    Requirements of Commercial Transmission Fluids
    The fluid requirements for automatic and semi-automatic transmissions used in larger
    commercial vehicles are defined by manufacturers such as Allison (Type C-4) and
    Caterpillar (TO-2, TO-4). The frictional requirements for Type C-4 and TO-2 fluids are
    very broad. Both specifications can be met with friction-modified passenger car ATFs
    and tractor hydraulic fluids, or with non-friction-modified heavy-duty engine oils and
    Caterpillar TO-4 fluids. On the other hand, the newer Caterpillar TO-4 specification calls
    for a fluid with substantially different frictional characteristics (more like a Type F fluid),
    improved wear protection, and enhanced seal and friction material compatibility. The
    demanding Caterpillar TO-4 specification defines a fluid that is essentially a unique,
    specialty lubricant.

    Powershift transmissions used in off-highway construction equipment have different fluid
    requirements than passenger car automatic transmissions because of higher load factors
    and the use of a wider variety of clutch materials. Current passenger car ATFs are
    friction-modified for smooth shifting, whereas commercial powershift fluids are not
    friction-modified in order to obtain the highest clutch and braking capacity. Powershift
    transmissions require more active antiwear and EP protection than passenger car
    transmissions because gears and bearings are much more heavily loaded. Passenger car
    ATFs use a viscosity modifier to give good low temperature performance, whereas OEMs
    such as Caterpillar and Komatsu prefer monograde oils (i.e., no viscosity modifier) that
    are not susceptible to shear so that the gears obtain maximum oil film thickness.
    European OEMs such as Voith and ZF also have a high shear stability requirement for
    transmission fluids used in their commercial transmissions to assure adequate film
    thickness. Powershift transmissions use a wide variety of clutch materials, such as paper,
    elastomeric, bronze, and graphite, whereas passenger car transmissions use mostly paper
    friction materials.

    In 1991, Caterpillar issued a new specification, TO-4, with significantly enhanced
    performance requirements for their newer equipment designs using new and diverse
    friction materials. This specification replaced the older CD/TO-2 specification. The
    differences between CD/TO-2 fluids and TO-4 fluids were highlighted in Team News 4.5.
    Suffice it to say that the differences in viscometrics (shear stability), additive chemistry,
    and frictional performance are substantial. Whereas a wide variety of oils met TO-2
    requirements, only specialized lubricants meet TO-4 requirements. TO-4 fluids are
    formulated to eliminate transmission slippage experienced with many CD/TO-2 engine
    oils and to provide significantly improved friction and antiwear performance, resulting in
    longer equipment life and reduced risk of field failure.
    Last edited by M104-AMG; 07-17-2014 at 01:08 PM.

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post
    I was always amazed how some people trust books or instrcutions ....

    Anyway , totally unexperienced, untrained and uneducated guy (me) claims that best option so far for 722.3 tranny is Redline D4
    First, I said you were a non-technician, and non factory trained
    I never questioned your education or automotive experience,
    don't put words in my mouth

    I'm not trusting books or instructions.

    I spoke with several MB engineers and a petro chemical engineer before I used this fluid.

    I do have connections after 30 years in the business

    Besides the fact, I'll say it again, 3 years later and the transmission shifts like a new one.

    I drove hundreds if not thousand of new MB's with 722.3 transmissions, so I know how they shift.

    Use what you want Roma, with a used transmission like yours, Dexron III or the D4 is "your" best bet

    Just don't doubt or discount the words of Klink and myself, 2 different MB technicians
    with many years of actual experience.

    If you haven't tried the MB fluid, don't judge it.
    Last edited by clarkz71; 07-17-2014 at 01:14 PM.

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    I'm not trusting books or instructions.

    I spoke with several MB engineers and a petro chemical engineer before I used this fluid.

    I do have connections after 30 years in the business

    Besides the fact, I'll say it again, 3 years later and the transmission shifts like a new one.

    I drove hundreds if not thousand of new MB's with 722.3 transmissions, so I know how they shift.

    Use what you want Roma, with a used transmission like yours, Dexron III or the D4 is "your" best bet

    Just don't doubt or discount the word of Klink and myself, 2 different MB technicians
    with many years of actual experience.

    If you haven't tried the MB fluid, don't judge it.
    I have a brand new transmission that I purchased from MB dealer .

    No doubts, just my personal experince and opinion for the guy who asked about fluid.
    500E 1 of 15

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Dave ... never however tried the MB fluid, as such cannot make a judgement on it's performance like Klink and myself.
    Correct - I have never used the newfangled 236.14 fluid in any of my 722.3 trannsmissions.


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post
    I have a brand new transmission that I purchased from MB dealer .

    .
    Really, how much did it run you?


    I paid $2450 for mine in 2011 when I still worked at the dealer

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    <SNIP>
    I drove hundreds if not thousand of new MB's with 722.3 transmissions, so I know how they shift.

    <SNIP>

    Just don't doubt or discount the words of Klink and myself, 2 different MB technicians
    with many years of actual experience.

    <SNIP>
    As a data point, my ASE Master Tech buddy (20+ years British, Euro, and Japanese experience) has moved over his shop to use SWEPCO on 722.3 transmissions for enthusiast customers, and I've converted him to SWEPCO in his Spec Miata, after he saw the tranny & diff results on the tracked 500E (Barney), and the RX7.

    However, on the newer trannies, esp. a tranny still under factory warranty, MB fluids period.

    neil

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by M104-AMG View Post

    However, and especially on the newer tranny, esp. a tranny still under factory warranty, MB fluids period.

    neil
    Good point Neil, I forgot that there is a 2 year warranty on the MB tramsmission

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by M104-AMG View Post
    As a data point, my ASE Master Tech buddy (20+ years British, Euro, and Japanese experience) has moved over his shop to use SWEPCO on 722.3 transmissions for enthusiast customers, and I've converted him to SWEPCO in his Spec Miata, after he saw the tranny & diff results on the tracked 500E (Barney), and the RX7.
    Neil,

    1) What was the subjective change with the TO-4 fluid, for street and/or strip use?
    2) What was the PREVIOUS fluid used that you are comparing this to?


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Check out these T-04 specs Dave


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    I figured since Neil said it was 20-wt, that it would be pretty thick stuff. Yowza!


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I figured since Neil said it was 20-wt, that it would be pretty thick stuff. Yowza!

    You ain't shittin

    And you thought redline high temp had a high cSt @ 100°C

    Personally, I think that's a little out of useful spec. Kind of the Anti Dex VI

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Honestly, I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.


    • Any name-brand Dexron III specification is perfectly acceptable for any 722.3 transmission as found on the E500E, W126, etc. It should be changed at 25-30,000 miles
    • For folks who want extended ATF drains, or have extremely severe duty, or who want the "best you can get" ATF, go with RedLine D4 or Hi-Temp, Amsoil, or Mobil 1 Synthetic. All of these are perfectly acceptable
    • "Newer spec" transmission fluids like Dexron VI are questionable. May or may not be good. Technically they should work, but why push the limits when normal dino Dex III and synthetic Dex III spec ATFs are available?
    • It is not a good idea to use current "MB spec" fluids for today's MB transmissions in yesteryear's MB (722.3) transmissions


    End of story. Honestly ... ask yourself the question ... WHY use a current-spec ATF that may or may not be spec'd for the 722.3, when you can easily, readily, and cheaply buy dino or synthetic ATFs that are perfectly fine for our transmissions? WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF DOING SO?

    Lastly, don't cheap out on the transmission filters. Get a Mann, Elring, MB or other quality filter to go with your ATF.

    Remember ... in life ... SIMPLER IS ALWAYS BETTER.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Honestly, I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.
    For 95% of forum members... I agree completely. Maybe 98-99%!

    I am mostly curious for two scenarios... first is drag racing use, which all our 500's see regularly; and second is for the tired 722.3 box where a non-standard fluid (i.e., Type F) may help Band-Aid some problems on the cheap.

    If you don't track your car and the trans shifts well, any Dex-III fluid changed per FSM maintenance schedule is okfine.


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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Neil,

    1) What was the subjective change with the TO-4 fluid, for street and/or strip use?
    2) What was the PREVIOUS fluid used that you are comparing this to?

    Scenario:
    One year of use track use (4) weekends of (2) days with (5) 20-minute sessions, followed by a 15-minute time-trial, plus occasional weekend use (Cars-n-Coffee).
    Clean, clean, clean.
    500E: fast, sharp, no-slip gear changes.
    Spec Miata & RX7: easy shifting (no notchiness). Smooth toe-heel. No overheating of fluid, esp. on RX7 tranny & diff (SouthEast heat & humidty and 150+ MPH runs).

    Fluid seemed almost new.

    Previous fluid:
    Tranny: Mobile 1 ATF and Mobil1 (sometimes Schaeffer) 75w90 Diff (500E) and Castrol (?) on the Spec Miata & RX7 (both tranny & diff)

    Current fluid:
    500E Tranny Swepco or Petro-Canada TO-4 / Diff: Swepco 201 (500E tranny & diff are original @ 130K+ miles).
    360TE AMG wagon. Same tranny since 2000 (C36 w/Swepco 714 only). Diff has been changed for ratios only, but usually Swepco 201 or Schaeffer.
    Spec Miata tranny & diff: Swepco 201 since 2004 (10-years on same tranny & diff)
    RX7 Tranny: Swepco 201 or Amsoil GL4 / diff: Swepco 201 or Schaeffer Original diff. 2nd tranny (5th gear synchro goes bad)


    Other than the Amsoil, I'm pretty sure these are all highly-refined paraffin base-stock oils.

    neil

    FWIW: We have a SunValley 722.3 in the '95 E320 wagon going on 3+ years. Started with Petro-Canada Multi-Drive, and then moved to Petro-Canada TO-4.
    Last edited by M104-AMG; 07-17-2014 at 02:33 PM.

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Really, how much did it run you?


    I paid $2450 for mine in 2011 when I still worked at the dealer
    I am sure you purchased yours at dealer cost ?

    I purchased mine at dealer cost. I think it was 2013 ? About 3000$ or so , do not remember exactly, I posted a separate thread here about my experinece all info should be there .

    Tranny is ok but torque converter is what takes a butt. It is 1500$ + which is ridicilous
    500E 1 of 15

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Any name-brand Dexron III specification is perfectly acceptable for any 722.3 transmission as found on the E500E, W126, etc. It should be changed at 25-30,000 miles
    Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post

    • For folks who want extended ATF drains, or have extremely severe duty, or who want the "best you can get" ATF, go with RedLine D4 or Hi-Temp, Amsoil, or Mobil 1 Synthetic. All of these are perfectly acceptable
    Agree


    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post

    • "Newer spec" transmission fluids like Dexron VI are questionable. May or may not be good. Technically they should work, but why push the limits when normal dino Dex III and synthetic Dex III spec ATFs are available?
    Agree 100%, nobody in this thread said Dexron VI was OK
    Quite the opposite

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post

    • It is not a good idea to use current "MB spec" fluids for today's MB transmissions in yesteryear's MB (722.3) transmissions
    That's your opinion, MB approved it, and Klink and I both use it with excellent results.
    a top quality synthetic
    3 years use for me. Sorry Honcho

    You are correct, as I pointed out that I would only use it in a reman/new transmission. Not a worn/used transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    End of story. Honestly ... ask yourself the question ... WHY use a current-spec ATF that may or may not be spec'd for the 722.3, when you can easily, readily, and cheaply buy dino or synthetic ATFs that are perfectly fine for our transmissions? WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF DOING SO?
    The benefit as far as the MB fluid is a much higher quality base stock, additive package and VI that maintains viscosity longer.

    It maintains that cSt @ 100°C number the life of the fluid

    Unlike a standard Dexron III which goes from a 7.6 or so # to a 3 or 4 in less then 10K miles

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post
    I am sure you purchased yours at dealer cost ?

    I purchased mine at dealer cost. I think it was 2013 ? About $3000
    Yes, that was dealer cost

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Honestly, I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.


    • For folks who want extended ATF drains, or have extremely severe duty, or who want the "best you can get" ATF, go with RedLine D4 or Hi-Temp, Amsoil, or Mobil 1 Synthetic. All of these are perfectly acceptable




    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post


    • It is not a good idea to use current "MB spec" fluids for today's MB transmissions in yesteryear's MB (722.3) transmissions


    Clark and Klink, look at this Sorry guys, big boss is on my side
    500E 1 of 15

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_500E View Post





    Clark and Klink, look at this Sorry guys, big boss is on my side
    Big Boss has not tried it, I think that's called hearsay, or opinion.

    Not fact based like what Klink and I have actually experienced.

    All you guys are making assumptions.

    Why does it irk you so much that the MB fluid works great in my transmission?

    I don't get it, it's like you think I'm lying...

    I have nothing to gain by endorsing it.

    When the Honcho has something to say HP related, I'll defer

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Big Boss has not tried it, I think that's called hearsay, or opinion.

    Not fact based like what Klink and I have actually experienced.

    All you guys are making assumptions.

    Why does it irk you so much that the MB fluid works great in my transmission?

    I don't get it, it's like you think I'm lying...

    I have nothing to gain by endorsing it.

    When the Honcho has something to say HP related, I'll defer
    No, not at all.

    I am enjoying debating with the knowledgeble person, sorry if it was annoying at some point.

    It is truly interesting to debate with you.

    My only concern regarding MB fluid is that it is sort of universal and supposedly fits all trannys .

    While our trannys are quite different than the newer ones.

    I do not like universal stuff I like "specially designed for" certain model.
    500E 1 of 15

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Actually, the 236.14 "RED" fluid is only used from 1997 to June of 2010 on 722.6 and 722.9 transmissions

    After that they use the "Blue" 236.15 fluid and there are 2 other newer fluid as well.

    And you are definitely not annoying, I enjoy any member that is trying to learn or understand a different point of view

    Bravo..........

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    Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Just because Clank uses something doesn't mean it is automatically the best way to go. For my cars, I will continue to use Dex III spec fluids.

    It would be like using modern "energy conserving" motor oils in a car with an M117. Sure they officially meet the spec but they also over time cause cam and follower damage due to lack of zinc & phosphate in the oil. But it is the oil that any MB dealer would happily put in the car, and it is not correct. It is actually detrimental to the valvetrain's health and longevity.

    So would you, Clank, use current spec MB motor oil at your dealerships in a customer's M117? Because MB spec told you to? Even though you know it would harm the car?

    By the way I am NOT against any current or earlier MB fluid, oil or ATF. Honestly I don't care because I exclusively use Dex III ATF and i use appropriate oils for my cars' engines.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post

    And you are definitely not annoying, I enjoy any member that is trying to learn or understand a different point of view

    Bravo..........
    That is why I love members of this board



    Thanx for sharing your knowledge
    500E 1 of 15

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Here's the transmissions that use the 236.14 fluid.

    236.14 was specially designed for the 722.9 seven speed transmission

    Then Mercedes decided to use it for the older 722.6 as well


    Last edited by clarkz71; 07-17-2014 at 03:28 PM.

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post

    It would be like using modern "energy conserving" motor oils in a car with an M117. Sure they officially meet the spec but they also over time cause cam and follower damage due to lack of zinc & phosphate in the oil. But it is the oil that any MB dealer would happily put in the car, and it is not correct. It is actually detrimental to the valvetrain's health and longevity.

    So would you, Clank, use current spec MB motor oil at your dealerships in a customer's M117? Because MB spec told you to? Even though you know it would harm the car?

    By the way I am NOT against any current or earlier MB fluid, oil or ATF. Honestly I don't care because I exclusively use Dex III ATF and i use appropriate oils for my cars' engines.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Engine oil is totally different because of the EPA and catalytic converters.
    So using current (up to 2010) ATF is nothing like using energy conserving "Starburst" oils

    Transmissions fluid are not affected by emissions.

    The newer transmissions are very hard on fluid, both heat and OCI, they have to be better
    then the older spec fluids.

    Current oil at the dealer is Mobil 1 0W40 which is fine for a M119 for 7500 mile OCI spec 229.5

    Diesels use the 5W40 Formula M 229.51

    If I had a M117 I would use 15W50 Mobil 1 , ZDDP is much higher then the 0W40

    I personally use Motul 5W40 8100 Excess group IV oil

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
    Check out these T-04 specs Dave

    It's important to use the 20wt (SAE) Swepco 714, which has very different numbers.

    In short, it's not molasses thick . . .

    neil

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    OK, that's much better.

    Thanks Neil

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    Re: Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Honestly, I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Cheers,
    Gerry


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