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Thread: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

  1. #121
    Senior Member HOFF's Avatar
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    He said they were building a custom order one for a client back then but the client bailed when is came time to cough up some cash (usual story)
    So perhaps that was the custom prototype they designed back then? I gathered they were working on making the design street friendly in conjunction with their Japan contact?

    I went off the idea anyway as you can see cost just gets way out of hand and it is not justifiable/logical unless you are doing all the work yourself and have access to fabricators/tuners etc and can do it on the cheap.
    I have gone back and focused on the M117 engine with the newly released FrankenCIS ECU Kit and have since purchased that and learning all the tuning options etc. Mike at Dkubus has put literally thousands of hrs into the fine tuning of the M117 with this product and is getting great torque results. I have been studying/learning his tuning skills - being an ex AMG employee and racing background/high end fabrication for racing components he is very knowledgeable with mapping
    1987 White Euro "ECE" 197kw 500SEC
    1988 Black Euro "RUF" 220kw 560SEC - going WB 2016
    1989 Midnight Blue Euro RUF 220kw SEL full hydro
    M117-968 220kw spare engine converted to EFI- Haltech 2000
    M119-960 5ltr /M119-980 5ltr-Haltech 2000 / 722.620 Trans - TCM 2000

  2. #122
    Senior Member HOFF's Avatar
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    I see AT Power Throttles in the UK have re-visited their custom 8 x ITB set up for a client in japan as they posted them back up on their facebook website in Dec with pics again
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...38688612851137

    They did advise myself last year they were building a set for a Japan order
    Wonder what M119 powered car they bolted bolted up to? Street or track
    1987 White Euro "ECE" 197kw 500SEC
    1988 Black Euro "RUF" 220kw 560SEC - going WB 2016
    1989 Midnight Blue Euro RUF 220kw SEL full hydro
    M117-968 220kw spare engine converted to EFI- Haltech 2000
    M119-960 5ltr /M119-980 5ltr-Haltech 2000 / 722.620 Trans - TCM 2000

  3. #123
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Quote Originally Posted by HOFF View Post
    I see AT Power Throttles in the UK have re-visited their custom 8 x ITB set up for a client in japan as they posted them back up on their facebook website in Dec with pics again
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...38688612851137

    They did advise myself last year they were building a set for a Japan order
    Wonder what M119 powered car they bolted bolted up to? Street or track

    This is the car.
    https://www.facebook.com/E500E/?fref=ts
    Regards Martin
    E420 Sportline 175k km 1994 - 199 Blauschwarz - Black Leather - ASR - AC - 18" Lorinser RS 1
    260E 270k km 1992 - 702 Rauchsilber - ASD - AC
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  4. #124
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    That is Niibe's car in Japan. He got one of the last 2 crate motors direct from AMG in Germany back around 2005... complete long block, zero miles, for something crazy like $4k USD. I remember because I almost bought one, but at the time didn't know what else was needed (EZL? LH? etc) and was concerned I wouldn't be able to source the rest of the stuff required to make it work (and, the eBay pics were small, fuzzy, and nobody knew the seller was Mercedes).

    Anyway - if you poke around his Faceplant pics, you can see his highly-modified engine is now putting out 300kw to the wheels, or ~400hp. Depending on what powertrain loss you use, that translates into roughly 490hp at the crank. Not bad for a factory intake with those long "restrictive" runners, eh?


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  6. #125
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    For sure that is Niibe's Chances are, if its totally insane and expensive, he has done it and done it right. They probably go well with his DLC coated valve train and pistons.

    I also believe this is his blog. I don't know anyone else with a CFRP roof and louvers that look like that. Might want to get in touch with him. Super nice guy and his English is good.

    http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/
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    Last edited by quicksilver500; 11-28-2016 at 03:27 PM. Reason: Just saw Dave's post, didn't get to the second page....
    1969 Pontiac LeMans Red/Black 105k
    1993 500E Silver/Black 180k
    1991 420SEL Anthracite/Saffron 176k
    2014 Subaru Impreza

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  8. #126
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksilver500 View Post
    For sure that is Niibe's Chances are, if its totally insane and expensive, he has done it and done it right. They probably go well with his DLC coated valve train and pistons.

    I also believe this is his blog. I don't know anyone else with a CFRP roof and louvers that look like that. Might want to get in touch with him. Super nice guy and his English is good.

    http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/
    we'll have a set of those here for the track rat as soon as ATPower is done making them..
    Blue Ridge Mercedes Jonathan Hodgman
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  10. #127
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    What could be done, without changeing almost Everything? I did this cut to my lower manifold/plenum to see the shape of things.
    To open up the Runners and polish the Surface inside, I Think is a good idea, also the plenum volume can be enlarged.
    I made some messurements and found the limits to lower the bottom of the plenum non exists. If however the upper part of the
    plenum is raised some 6mm, the space between the Runners where the rubber rings sit, it will be possible to add c:a 10mm
    to the partition and make a larger plenum and also by that gain the distance TBA to bottom of the plenum wich is a bit narrow.

    There is room enough to let the TBA to sit higher in the manifold, with alterations to the MAF/TBA Connection i.e.
    not using the rubber sleave, the MAF will sitt upon the TBA and the assembly would not be any taller.

    When I reacently was to visit the tuning shop and the "chip guy" programmer, he put forward the possibility to
    enlarge the throttle body by turning it and making a new throttle disc and there may be 2mm to work with as it seem.

    Considering the fact, 4.2-5.0- 6.0 and also 6.5 liters do breath through the same intake exept the different
    runner dia, 4.2-5.0/6.0 and the HWA manifold Everything is oddly of the same size.

    There will be more Pictures and explanation in due time...
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    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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  12. #128

    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    I think it could help if plenium volume can be increased. Some guy did this to M117 and results were good. This is link to benzword http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126...16v-382hp.html.
    500SL-90

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  14. #129
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Youre right Jouniu, that is my intention, in simple terms, by raising the TBA mating Surface i.e. the gasket flange, meaning the upper
    part of the plenum. How? the "head room" for the TBA within the margin would allow the TBA to be raised ~ 10mm, that is possible
    by cutting the four distance pieces wich make up the distance between the Runners, upper to lower, thats where the rubber sealing
    rings sit.

    By doing so, you will have some 15mm to add, thus enlarging the plenum quite a bit AND have more distance from the
    butterfly valve to the plenum floor, that and the polishing/porting "down below" would probably make wonders, I Think.

    More Pictures will come soon to show my thoughts...
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Here are a few, it gives the estimate of the margin to play with. between Runners and the restraint bit, where the four screws
    hold together the two pieces upper/lower, also what distance there is Before the TBA goes "into the roof" i.e. where it will
    sit when the lower part/plenum is moved upwards. There will be, at least 15 maybe 20mm more to add to the bottom part.

    All this was not initially why I opened the plenum, that was just to get a good look and also do the grinding/polishing so this
    enlargement of the plenum, wich long ago was a topic, NIIBE for one, was talking about. Think it could not hurt the TBA sitting
    higher,no problem as I am thinking of mating the MAF right on the TBA that will be without the rubber collar and that will compensate
    for the added height of the assy and maintain roughly its original position to the aircleaner housing. You follow?

    As I earlier was talking to the tuner/programmer, the big Q was IF the throttle dia would be too narrow, maybe so and if
    there could be a last meassure and "bore the TBA" 1 or 2mm and make a new butterfly disc,,,,
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

  16. #131
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Just want to point out that plenum volume and runner length are going to do different things a bit. Adding a spacer under the throttle body will increase plenum size a bit but I would say that you want to measure the plenum volume 1st. 1.5 times displacement is a generally good and accepted starting point. To big and you can get a bit lazy throttle response. Large plenums help top end in that the cylinder does not empty the plenum before it has a chance to recharge. So think about the RPM range and the volume of the plenum and the actual CFM flow you are theoretically getting. Throttle body size of course effects this a lot. But there is a balance and you want to keep velocity up as well. So to big and the air slows down and that is not good.

    The spacer on the upper and lower halves at the runners are going to lenghten the runners which is going to change a few different things. Look at over length and I am betting that they are that long to hit the 2nd or 3rd wave resonance. You could actually rob power from the engine significantly by moving the runner length out of one of these frequencies.

    Just food for thought.

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  18. #132

    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Lower part volume is ~1.8 liters. So it is way too small for 5....6l engine.
    500SL-90

  19. #133
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    Re: M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

    Quote Originally Posted by jouniu View Post
    Lower part volume is ~1.8 liters. So it is way too small for 5....6l engine.
    Yes, and the fact that it is the same "hardwear" for all capacities with the exeption of the Three different upper manifolda
    namely, the 4.2, regular 5.0/E60 and we have the HWA manifold, came w the E50 and has 12% bigger runner area.

    The plenum, TBA, air cleaner are all the same size:::

    " Adding a spacer under the throttle body will increase plenum size a bit"

    There will be NO spacer under the TBA, I did show that "gap"just
    to explain how much room upwards there is for the TBA and the upper part of the lower Runners to be raised, in order to achieve
    the enlarging of the lower part, or the plenum itself, see? I.E. the complete assembly, plenum together with the TBA as it is, This will
    shorten the runner length some 10mm. We are talking 6liter here and there is no shortage of low end thrust and if this slightly does move
    the powerband a bit higher up the revs, still it would be more usefull to have the extra breath and not run out of it.

    If you do not create a totally new manifold there will be no use to go very "wild" in porting, caming, valvesize and so on.
    I belive this porting, enlarging will be sufficient enough and make a needed part of a serious upgrading.

    Do not forget the exhaust side of things, that will also be attended to BUT all this I am going through will follow the OEM
    design, just altered as much as is possible within the boundarys i.e. they, AMG, BRABUS....could have done this, remember
    AMG did make the new bigger upper manifold, they could have gone a bit more and constructed a new plenum also but
    maybe at the time they were thinking, enough IS enough....

    I am Confident this whole operation will take the 6liter well into 450hp,Ps and be in par with the 6.2 Carlson 6.5 (6.4) BRABUS
    or even better, let's see about that.
    '92 500E 6.0 AMG
    '93 400E 5.0 AMG
    '96 E50 AMG
    '96 CL500
    '99 C43 AMG

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