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Thread: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

  1. #1
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    Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Hello all - found a few threads regarding the replacement of engine / motor mounts on the M104 W124 but none on the M119 W124 (500E in specific), only a guide of how to check them (not verified this against my car at this point).

    My car has recently suffered with bad vibration through the entire car at 100/120km+ on the motorway. Got the car into my specialist today and it turns out the engine mounts (at least one) is bad as the engine does not sit straight in alignment and has put the prop offset which is causing the vibration. Evidence of prop fouling the body. Others parts very close to each other when they should not be.

    Anyone done the engine mounts on the 500E? I will also replace the gearbox mount at the same time (MB) as it would be silly not to. Can anyone give me a guide of:

    a) tips to make the job as easy as possible?
    b) estimated garage time?
    c) estimated parts cost (MB only)?
    d) any other jobs worth doing at the same time (while everything is open)?

    Has anyone else experienced high speed vibration with bad engine mounts? Personally ever only heard of shaking at start up and shutdown (which I do notice but thought it was a big V8 so normal) and a slight clonk when I'm on/off the throttle (which could be the g-box mount?) around town. Car on 174,200km and a 1992 500E. Both prop donuts visually look perfect but have not been removed to be inspected. All diff and rear bushes check out fine.

    Cheers

    B

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I did this over a weekend with some other stuff. I think it can be done in a day if you want. But i can quickly escalate to around 6-8 hours of wrenching. So if when you never have done this it will take some time. First you have to remove the exhaust cross pipe. Passenger side is easy. You have to take off some of the heat shield and other stuff. you will see then you are under. I justed a jack on the bottom pan to lift the engine up. On the drivers side i had to take of the mount on the engine itself. Did that from the wheel well.
    Best thing is to set of a good amount of time and dont rush. Most times its the best thing to remove stuff than to hassle around it and have a hard time doing it. Most times it saves you time even if you dont think so in the start.

    I would order the top bolt new and maybe the bottom bolt. At least you need new locktite(blue) on the bottom if you reuse them.
    The lemforder is the same as original and a lot cheaper. They are aroundt 70$ each.
    Also change the gear case mount. Thats easy. Dont have to say anything about that. Explains itself then you are under and look at it.

    I would also take a look at power steering hoses and cooler lines to the transmission and see if anythings need changing.
    Also check the wiring harness that goes to the starter and alternator.
    Steering damper is also something that often are gone on them. And take a look at the other steering parts.

    Vibration at speed most likely are the drive line support bearing. Also smart to check the flex joints at the same time.

    Rockauto.com has a lot of the parts you need.
    Regards Martin
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    The most common symptom of worn engine mounts is that you feel a vibration through the chassis at idle. Without actually driving your car, I would guess that you have a bad drive shaft center support bearing that's causing the vibration at speed, but that's just a guess.

    Gerry will be doing a how-to on engine mounts in the near future but it sounds like you will need to tackle the job a bit sooner. I'm sure the pros will chime in but until then, here are my tips to help make the job easier...note this is not a how-to, just some tips that will make your life a bit easier. Also note that I have not read through the factory procedure as I generally rely on my mechanical aptitude and my life-long experience working on cars.

    After raising the engine, use a piece of wood between the engine and cross member to support it while removing the mounts. Make it large enough to distribute the load, use your judgement and about 1.5" thick. Doing this will give you more room under the car since you won't have a jack in the way. A standard 2x4 may fit depending on your particular car...or you may have to trim it down.

    Once you have access to the engine mounts (meaning, you've removed the things that are in your way) you will want to unbolt the mount arms from the engine block. You will need a ratchet with a swivel head...trust me on this, if you don't have one, go buy one, you will be frustrated if you don't. Ok, once the arms are unbolted, you will need to rotate the arm/mount such that you can access the single large bolt on top. This is more difficult than it sounds because there is very little room to work. Since the engine is resting on the wood block, you can push it a bit in either direction, use this to your advantage, every little bit helps. Anyway, once you rotate the arm/mount, you'll be able to access the top bolt...which will be tight. If you have an air impact wrench, use it. With that removed, the mount will separate from the arm and you can extract it with some persistence.

    The most important thing to remember is to be patient and not to get frustrated, it's not a hard job but frustration settles in because there is so little room.

    Ok...I'm sure the pros will have more to say.
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    This can be easy,rusted bolt and it can be a bear.
    Offset or flex 17mm wrench is helpful. Mb replacement bolts are 16mm.

    M

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    D riverside you need an offset as you will have difficulty getting at the top bolt.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Thanks all - it looks like a hard job and I don't have the tools or workshop to take on something like this so it's one for the garage. I would be interested to hear any experiences where the engine mounts themselves have caused the vibration. The case might be severe on my car...

    Can anyone shed light on the drive line support bearing? I.e. where it is and would it be mounted with a rubber mount? Might make sense to replace this at the same time.

    Flex discs look fine (visually) however I will replace the front one as I have a spare.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I know it's not the same, but I have had to do this on the C126. Engine mounts collapse at differing heights and it changed things. Tranny mount and center bearing had wear. So depending on how long it has been going on, at least inspect. For my personal car, it was original so when engine mounts went, all of it got changed out. Flex disk looked good until removed, showing multiple cracks. So my thoughts are to have one shop fee and replace it all and be done with it. If it's original and rubber then change it with original parts.


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Wasn't there a couple of other detailed threads on DIY engine mount R&R...?


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    To answer your question,

    The center support is between the front half and the back of the driveshaft. Most ppl find an amazing difference when new mounts are put on the car.
    Be warned, I think most shops charge 5-6 hrs to do the mounts.

    I would do mm's and then at another time do shifter bushings and the driveshaft service(both flex discs, bearing and support).



    Michael

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    To answer your question,

    The center support is between the front half and the back of the driveshaft. Most ppl find an amazing difference when new mounts are put on the car.
    Be warned, I think most shops charge 5-6 hrs to do the mounts.

    I would do mm's and then at another time do shifter bushings and the driveshaft service(both flex discs, bearing and support).



    Michael
    Cheers Michael. My shop is charging 6 hours for the work which I thought was excessive but after the kind responses on this thread these mounts on the 500E seem hard work. This would be 2x engine mounts and 1x gearbox mount (this looks easy anyways). I may ask if he can change the front flex disc too (as I have it spare + bolts) and see how the car feels. We are both certain the engine mounts are the cause of the vibration and clonk when on/off throttle.

    I will go and order the parts from MB tomorrow morning (will also get any fixtures and fittings that come with it).

    Cheers

    B

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by e500.org View Post
    Cheers Michael. My shop is charging 6 hours for the work which I thought was excessive but after the kind responses on this thread these mounts on the 500E seem hard work. This would be 2x engine mounts and 1x gearbox mount (this looks easy anyways). I may ask if he can change the front flex disc too (as I have it spare + bolts) and see how the car feels. We are both certain the engine mounts are the cause of the vibration and clonk when on/off throttle.

    I will go and order the parts from MB tomorrow morning (will also get any fixtures and fittings that come with it).

    Cheers

    B
    That is extremely fair, IMO. I would happily pay them the money. Those that would estimate significantly less simply haven't done the job before, and I would not want my car to be the first one they did...
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Gerry will be doing a how-to on engine mounts in the near future
    Actually, I had my mounts replaced long about 2006 when I lived in Portland, so no current plans to do this job anytime soon. My mounts only have about 50K on them, so I think I have some breathing room for this job.

    I WILL be doing a HOW-TO on the E500E lower wiring harness replacement in the near future, but it's going to be some weeks out because of nearly endless travel between now and the Fourth of July.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Oops, brain fart. Thanks for clarifying Gerry.
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by e500.org View Post
    I would be interested to hear any experiences where the engine mounts themselves have caused the vibration.
    This has been my experience ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    The most common symptom of worn engine mounts is that you feel a vibration through the chassis at idle.
    Change engine and gearbox mounts (especially at that mileage and no record of 'em being done) you'll feel a world of difference. +++1 what everyone says , DIYable but not for the fainthearted.

    Oh Drive shaft = prop shaft to us brits . Drive shafts commonly referred to FWD cars or us Brits = Axel shaft to Yanks
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Oh you may find that the gear box mount is on back order from MB germany, If so buy stateside! That's if you want to stick to OE MB of course, which i personally prefer.
    1994 E fünfhundert (170kkm sold )
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Bing thanks a million mate - hoping to stay with OEM MB bits tbh but they're working out so expensive. Prices from MB today:

    - Engine mounts - £171.60 each x 2 = £343.20 / $518.60
    - Gearbox mount - £79.80 = $120.51
    - Fixtures and fittings - £45.96 = $69.46

    A lot more expensive than I thought - total of £468.96 + £400 in labour = £898.96 over $1300 for this job!

    I will check Lemforder part prices as they should be cheaper. MB said they are all available and will be coming in from Germany.

    Cheers

    B

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Found Lemforder engine mounts - details are below - priced at £70 each.

    Engine Mounting Left and right Front (LEMFÖRDER, 10850 01)

    Can anyone confirm the p/n is correct?

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I cannot check for you, my engine and tranny mount for my C126 are lemforder, still good after 20k


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    89 560 SEC
    92 300D 282k and counting.
    E5E .... at some point.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Lemforder engine mounts are just the same as comes in the package from Mercedes in this case.

    On rockauto they are £50 just so you know.

    I strongly recommend that you buy the top bolts new from MB part nr N000933010193. You will need two of them.

    I see that they have an transmission mount from DEA for £12. But thats so cheap that i dont know if the quality is any good. But if MB mounts are in backorder it might be worth a try if you cant get a hold of anything from a more know partsmaker.

    Transmission mount part nr A1402400318
    Gearbox mount is something you can do in a driveway in around 30-45 minutes if you are a bit slow. Jack under the gearbox to take the weight. 6bolts to take down the metal support. And one bolt to get the rubber out and you are good to assemble.

    If anyone needs one if they really are on backorder.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Tra...3e9e0f&vxp=mtr
    Last edited by modzona; 04-27-2015 at 09:26 AM.
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I agree with new studs.... I had my Indy use new stainless hex head rather than hex socket so I can do the next ones myself (I saw they were stripped)


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Absolutely use new hardware if there is any damage to the hex bolts, but the plating on the threads are of importance.

    As I said before, MB bolt will be 16mm hex instead of the original 17mm. That means you'll need a correct way to torque or do that good German torquing-"Good'n'tight". Said with the proper accent!

    I generally avoid stainless steel bolts unless they are a known 10.9 strength. Many times they are weaker than the originals, and without plating. Without an understanding of galvanic corrosion, stick with factory like. And to this- you can use blue loctite on the threads to help prevent corrosion in the threads.



    Michael

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Cheers for the tip guys. I always order new bolts and surrounding parts on jobs like these, covered in the £45 "fixtures and fittings" above. These will only come from MB. Having trouble finding the gearbox mount from Lemforder - wonder if they didn't make one - if anyone knows it please let me know the part number so I can source one in the UK.

    Cheers

    B

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by e500.org View Post
    Having trouble finding the gearbox mount from Lemforder - wonder if they didn't make one - if anyone knows it please let me know the part number so I can source one in the UK.
    I'm not aware of any OEM/aftermarket rear mount, only the OE/MB dealer part. It's not that expensive, just get the genuine item for the rear mount. Big savings is on the front mounts.


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Tried in the past , no aftermarket gearbox mount, Dave is right.

    Make sure the Lemforder engine mounts you get have BBB (and/or reboxed OE Boge) markings on them as in the US supplied ones. Euro stock maybe different.

    courtesy of Dave's pics:

    Last edited by bing; 04-27-2015 at 03:46 PM.
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Clunking sounds more like a torn center support or flex disc. But I'm sure the mm are need ed.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Hey all - got 1 mount today (other is on order) and very impressed with the quality. Bing - it's the new one as per your pic. Waiting for the other mount which should come through next week so I can get them fitted next weekend hopefully Gearbox mount and all bolts/fixtures are coming from MB and hopefully will be here by the end of the week.

    Didn't realise how big these engine mounts are - it's huge!







    Cheers for everyone's help on here. Managed to get them for £50 each (posted) in the end which is a massive saving over MB's £171!

    I will post up the results when I have them replaced and try the car - very much looking forward to driving my 500 on fresh engine and gearbox mounts, I hope it's a noticeable difference as it's quite a big job!

    Cheers

    B

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Just to update this thread the engine mounts have changed and my car has been transformed! So much smoother and the engine looks higher in the bay itself. Here are the old (Boge) units






    Cheers

    Bill

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Did it solve your vibration issue?

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Yes it did, transformed the ride if I'm honest, but now I have another vibration at 140kmh which I presume already existed previously.

    Due to change alloys and tyres, have the car laser aligned and go from there.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    The old mounts you replaced look pretty good, compared to a c126 mount. Those completely collapse to nothing when they go and are less than 1/2 their original size. Good improvements.
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    what about this ?


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Had that most of that stuff out on my 420. Does not really make it any easier. Did not do anything to the oil filter housing or tubes. Pain in the a** anyway. They are so much bigger and unmanageable than they seem on the car when you get them loose. The driver side i got out in the front. But the passenger side i had to tak out behind because of the filter housing.
    Regards Martin
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Klink mine was more fun than most- my car has Renntech headers which require the starter to come to have enough room to extract the passenger side mount. Top bolts are so much fun too.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    How did I get mentioned in this?
    Anyway, it's the biggest shit job going no matter how you do it. It absolutely sucks. Anybody that says it doesn't hasn't done it yet.
    Last edited by Klink; 01-03-2016 at 07:36 PM.
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    Anyway, it's the biggest shit job going to matter how you do it. It absolutely sucks. Anybody that says it doesn't hasn't done it yet.
    Amen to that. ^^^

    Which is why you want to only use OE or OEM (Boge/Lemforder) mounts, as you'll never want to do the job again...


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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    How did I get mentioned in this?
    Anyway, it's the biggest shit job going to matter how you do it. It absolutely sucks. Anybody that says it doesn't hasn't done it yet.
    I've done it twice within the last year and while not fun, it's not THAT bad. Otoh, I can't think of another job that's less fun, LOL.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    I've done it twice within the last year and while not fun, it's not THAT bad. Otoh, I can't think of another job that's less fun, LOL.
    OK, I will give you the "I can't think of another job that's less fun"
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Hehe laughs ,,,try and do the oil pan on a glk ,with the 651 engine ,,then you can start crying Everything ,,,I say everything except the engine block and head is left in there ��

  53. #40
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    At least the service manual doesn't start with pulling the engine like some models!!!! Bet a M120 R129 is worse.

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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I popped in on my indy after not seeing him for over a year and he was pulling an engine on an 6 year old suv. He was changing mounts and the timing chain r/r.
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
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  55. #42
    postwhore posterchild Klink's Avatar
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    At least the service manual doesn't start with pulling the engine like some models!!!! Bet a M120 R129 is worse.
    Some of the cars have work instructions that start with "remove engine", most notably the 230 chassis SL with turbo V12 engine, and some early production 220 with turbo V12. I find the 129 with V12 not too bad. The 60° angle between the banks leaves more space than the 90° between banks of the V-8. For that matter, though the engine compartments seem nearly identical at first glance, the 124 V8s are far worse to change mounts in than any 129. The 129 was designed to accommodate the width of a V8 from the start of production, the 124, not so much...
    Last edited by Klink; 01-04-2016 at 09:16 AM.
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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  57. #43
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I forsaw changing the motor mounts as a big problem laying on my back in the driveway so when I had my trans serviced a couple of years ago I had Ted Reich of Transmeister / Orange, CA do them for me along with the trans mount and shift link bushings/ grommets.

    He did it by lifting the engine up somewhat as "lowman" described. He was not a happy camper when he was finished but I was. He also replaced the leaking power steering return hose though he said never again to doing that while the engine was lifted. BTW, it's leaking again.

    Although I like doing my own work some things are best left to others unless you have access to a lift.
    Terry

  58. #44
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    With the 036 engine mounts removed, some other jobs become a lot easier... consider doing other stuff "while you're in there" if pulling the mounts. Examples are the low-pressure power steering hoses (both S-hose and straight one hidden along the frame rail), lower engine wiring harness, oil level sensor/seal, yadda yadda...


  59. #45
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryA View Post
    ... He also replaced the leaking power steering return hose though he said never again to doing that while the engine was lifted. BTW, it's leaking again. .
    Terry, there are two p/s return hoses.. did he replace both? It isn't likely the replaced one is leaking again, unless the clamps are loose. Also make sure it's not leaking from the output shaft seal on the steering box, which is another common leaker.


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  61. #46
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by modzona View Post
    Had that most of that stuff out on my 420. Does not really make it any easier. Did not do anything to the oil filter housing or tubes. Pain in the a** anyway. They are so much bigger and unmanageable than they seem on the car when you get them loose. The driver side i got out in the front. But the passenger side i had to tak out behind because of the filter housing.
    Yeah ,but if you take out the oil filter housing ,,does the mount come out that way then ? That was my thought ....

  62. #47
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    So anyone determine Lowman's idea about pulling the left side mount out the front?
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

  63. #48
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    i havent tried it yet myself..but when i had the "stuff off" in the front end..i did not see why it shouldt work..but...yes..you can be fooled of the size on the engine mount..it may be "bigger and more trickier to handle in that tight space..
    1992 w124 500e "Blackbeauty"
    1989 w201 190e 2.5-16 Evo spec "Evoltwin"
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  65. #49
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    Question Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I am in the process of replacing the mounts. I have the drivers side mount in place, but have a question about the top bolt. New bolt (part # 304017010051) does not come with a washer (also it is 16mm while old bolt is 17mm). Does anyone know if a washer is needed or is it OK to install without a washer? Washer on the old bolt is not removable.

    motormountbolt.jpeg

  66. #50
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Use a washer with the new bolt. Great example of a screwed-up part supercession.

    I'd re-use the old bolt unless it is damaged...


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  68. #51
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Thanks gsxr. I went ahead and used the old bolts as they looked fine.

    For those who are going to purchase new mounts, getting the OE Lemforder mounts took a bit of work. In the end I found out that if you want Lemforder mounts - which are the same mounts MB sells but with the MB Star ground off - you need to order ZF mounts. I attempted to order mounts that were listed as Lemforder but always got a back-order response. Finally took a chance on ordering the ZF branded mount and they came as Lemforder, just as I wanted. Makes sense as ZF owns Lemforder but they don't list the "ZF" mount in any catalog that I could find. Autohaus sells the Lemforders as ZF, as do several other online outfits. I purchased mine off of eBay for $107.28 each.

    Old mount height = 98.7 mm
    New mount height = 105.87 mm

    Old Mount Number

    oldmount2.jpeg

    Old Mount Number

    oldmount.jpeg

    New Mount Number

    newmount2.jpeg

    New Mount Number

    newmount.jpeg

    Box

    File_004.jpeg

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  70. #52
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    BTDT
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

  71. #53
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    Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprnova View Post
    I am in the process of replacing the mounts.Does anyone know if a washer is needed or is it OK to install without a washer?
    Keep in mind that a flat washer is used to protect the part that u mount from damage. So u can always use one If the bolt/screw is long enough.
    Long enough means the end of the bolt has to go through the nut for at least 3 windings.

    This comes from my time as an airplane mechanic, long ago...
    Last edited by Hakie; 06-25-2017 at 09:09 AM.

  72. #54
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    Re: Engine mounts bad - advice needed.

    I ordered a while back bolts and washers for my Nautical Blue 500E and I got the right parts as below.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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