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Thread: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

  1. #1
    I do believe...! Christian_K's Avatar
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    Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    Hello, im about to order new hydraulic lifters but im very confused.
    I know from the WIS that there were at least two version of the lifters. One with significant reduced weight.

    Early ones weighting 82gramms and the later ones 64gramms. All measurements are identical on both with diameter of 34.965mm-34.975mm (manufacturers say 35mm) and height of 25.5mm-26.5mm (Federal Mogul says 26mm for theirs). See pic:

    hydraulic_lifters.jpg

    So WIS now says in document "ra05001192110x" (2110 - Check and replace hydraulic lifters) that the older ones with 82gramms are only supposed to be used with the early style double-valve springs, it is NOT saying that the newer ones could not be used with with the older double valve springs.
    Now in Document Number in WIS "ra0500119ta00x" (05 - Technical Changes) it is saying that with month 04 in 1995, weight reduced hydraulic lifters were phased in and they can only be used with the later style single, "conical-shaped" valve springs.

    So my questions are now:
    - Are those ones "phased in" in 04.1995, the ones with 64gramms? Didnt the conical valve springs appeared earlier? Part-Nr?
    - What is the fitting Part-Nr for my car with early style double valve springs? The EPC shows for my car the latest Nr: "A1040501225". Is this latest one some sort of "universal/unified lifter" as this fits in not only M111, M104, M120, M119 engines but also some Diesels OMXYZ and so forth.
    - The latest Part-Nrs (A1040501225, A1040501025, A1110500025) shows at INA or Federal Mogul (AE), etc that those have 35mm outside diameter and now a height of only 24mm instead of 26mm!
    Old ones (i measured them from my engines .974 00 4324 and my early .970 engine) around 26mm, the listed ones by EPC ones showing only 24mm and have the remark that "only used starting at engine Number .974 005782" while my engine is a .974 00 4324. Im very confused!

    I phoned a lot with AE (Federal Mogul, Beru Germany) and they have two ones listed for our engines and the M111, M104, M120 engines. One is called AE FOL124 and one AE FOL147.
    They are both supposed to be identical in weight, but the AE FOL124 are 26mm in height while the AE FOL147 are 24mm in height.

    So what lifter to get?
    The part Nrs. "A1040501225, A1040501025, A1110500025" translate into "INA
    420 0042 10" with only 24mm in height but they should fit into my car according to both INA and the original Nr in the EPC.

    Im very very confused. Please tell me which ones to buy, and if both the 24mm and 26mm ones "sit" the same on the valve-stem/valve-spring cup
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


  2. #2
    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    The lighter lifters can be used with either valve springs.

    The heavy lifters can only be used with the older double springs. My assumption is, the new single springs are not strong enough to push the heavier lifter, which makes sense.

    Dave M.
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  3. #3
    I do believe...! Christian_K's Avatar
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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    The lighter lifters can be used with either valve springs.

    The heavy lifters can only be used with the older double springs. My assumption is, the new single springs are not strong enough to push the heavier lifter, which makes sense.

    Thanks, and the issue with the 24mm vs 26mm height? I think it might be just the outside case reaching further down the lifters-bore in the heads, as the valves lengths were not changed in our cars.
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


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    .036 Hoonigan™
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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    Not sure I see the problem here. FSM specs say 26mm is ok, and shorter would not cause a problem. Right? You might be over-thinking things...


  5. #5
    I do believe...! Christian_K's Avatar
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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Not sure I see the problem here. FSM specs say 26mm is ok, and shorter would not cause a problem. Right? You might be over-thinking things...

    FSM says 26mm is Ok. EPC listed Part-Nrs show only 24mm ones nowadys...
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    24mm would be plenty of a guiding action.

    They have consolidated and updated designs through the year. FYI I think the Porsche and VW 4V INA lifters are the same. I looked at the VW as they were significantly cheaper than MB or Porsche. You can choose brazil or european made lifters from INA and there is a price difference.




    Michael

  7. #7
    I do believe...! Christian_K's Avatar
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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    24mm would be plenty of a guiding action.

    They have consolidated and updated designs through the year. FYI I think the Porsche and VW 4V INA lifters are the same. I looked at the VW as they were significantly cheaper than MB or Porsche. You can choose brazil or european made lifters from INA and there is a price difference.




    Michael
    Hi,
    the "INA 420 0042 10" (24mm height) are the ones for the M119, M120, M104, M111 Mercedes engines and have the MB-Part Nr: "A1040501225" (listed as latest for all M119 engines according to EPC). They also have the VW Part Nr: "00A109309" and fit Volkswagen LT commercial vehicles with the 2.3Liter engines.

    There is also "INA 420 0022 10" with 35mm diameter and 26mm height. These are for many VW/Audi/Skoda Type cars. They might look correct from the outside shape but even INA issued a warning that using the wrong lifter can even cause engine damage.
    See attachment warnung_ina.pdf


    Look i find the Install Info about the "INA 420 0042 10": ventilstoessel-ina-420004210-2.pdf
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


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    Senior Member Rouven036's Avatar
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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

    I can confirm that the lighter lifters fit and work well in early style aka double valve spring heads. Have all 32 of them in my car since 2006 or so... The difference in height only gives you more freedom for higher lift cams in case the double valve springs don't go on block before that. As I remember you have been behind that upgrade too...
    W123, W124, R129, W163, W201, R230

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rouven036 For This Useful Post:

    Christian_K (07-23-2015), Jim (07-23-2015)

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    Re: Hydraulic Lifter confusion

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    gsxr (03-03-2017)

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