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Thread: OWNER - JC220

  1. #421
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by JC220 View Post
    ... it kind of sounds like there are two more guides that go in the V of the heads.
    Yes - these are callout # 110 in your list/diagram; Upper sliding rail (x2) - A1190521116

    See attached for more info, in this diagram (from the FSM) they would be items 8 and 14 (same part number for each).

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    Dave M.
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Thanks Dave for the pic that's great. I'll get an email off to price all the parts.

    I just got confirmation that the Stainless Fox exhaust for the 500E has been dispatched from Germany. That & the E500 headlamps will be here next week #Awesome!

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  5. #423
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    A large box arrived from Germany today - it's the Fox exhaust!

    A quick peek in the box & it looks sweet - high quality. It'll bolt up to the factory CAT's etc. I will be fitting this as soon as I get home tonight.

    I'll weigh the old back box / resonator just for comparison. It might offer a slight weight saving with the Y pipe. If there's any other information you guys would like ask now or forever hold your peace!




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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    I've got data on the weights for stock bits... would love to know what the Fox weighs by comparison! Also need lots of photos!

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    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Ok so here's some pics

    Dave- the weights are-

    Y pipe- 9.4ib


    Backbox- 21.2ib

    The system is very well made- big fat smooth welds, mandrel bends and just a real high quality feel to it. It arrived well wrapped and came with the fitting kit. (Although I'll be using my own bolts & copper nuts to fit)


    Heading out now to fit this sucker- can't wait to hear what it sounds like





    IMG_1706.JPGIMG_1695.JPG
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  10. #426
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Looks nice!. Hopefully 5thscaleracer will weigh on the Fox build vs his performance exhaust.
    Greg
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    #Diesel optik! ."giggles"
    1992 w124 500e "Blackbeauty"
    1989 w201 190e 2.5-16 Evo spec "Evoltwin"
    2003 Ford Focus Rs (Sold )

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Well I just got the system bolted up – it fits very well. There is one area where it came very close to the existing heat shields. I bent them back a little out of the way. (At the double pipe bit) But otherwise it slid right on and it hugs the axle etc very nice.

    The sound is nice – subtle which is what I was looking for. At idle it’s just a little deeper than stock – but when revved a v8 growl spits out the back! It’s late here now and my neighbours think I’m mad enough as it is- without me revving a V8 at night so I’ll get a video of the sound at the weekend!

    Quote Originally Posted by 8899 View Post
    Looks nice!. Hopefully 5thscaleracer will weigh on the Fox build vs his performance exhaust.

    I am not intending to compare this with 5thscaleracer’s system. His looks good too and if I lived within a 5 hour drive of him (Or in the USA for that matter) I would likely have considered one of those. In terms of cost- the import duty alone on the 5thscaleracer system would have cost more than this Fox system cost! This Fox system was £560 including shipping from Germany – and made new to order. I think this offers tremendous value for money and I’m glad I tracked down ‘maybe’ the only sports exhaust factory in the world that still makes ‘off the shelf’ 500E performance exhausts.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowman View Post
    #Diesel optik! ."giggles"

    Yeah I think that refers to the exhaust tip design. They mean – stock or standard diesel style tips. They do other styles of tips as well for the 500E like dual round tips that stick out but I like keeping the car looking original & not having to cut the bumper.



    So yeah I’m really pleased with this system It’s just a shame I can’t drive the car right now to see how it sounds on the road since I’m still waiting on those E500 headlamps and the all important MOT certificate to follow.

    When under the car tonight I also noticed the fuel pumps copper crush washers are weeping fuel. So I'll order new crush washer from MB and renew all 6 at the pumps before the car is returned to the road

    Last edited by JC220; 08-18-2016 at 03:45 PM.

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  14. #429
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    £560 (~$750 USD) including shipping from Germany sounds like a bargain. Does the vendor ship to USA?
    (Edit: From this vendor, it appears they may not ship to USA... haven't found any others yet.)


    When you have time, please post a photo of how the tips look at the rear edge of the bumper!

    BTW - about the fuel pumps, if they are old/original, replace both with new Bosch while you have it apart. And, inspect both the feed hose from tank to pump inlet, and outlet high-pressure hose from filter to chassis main line. Both of these hoses are known to be common crackers; the high-pressure one at the filter outlet is dangerous if it leaks. More info here:
    http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8977



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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Dave-

    This is the Ebay Link I used to buy the Fox exhaust

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fox-Exhaust-Racing-System-CAT-Mercedes-E-Class-W124-E420-E500-2xDieseloptik-/391391504895

    There are other styles / tips / dual silencer Fox 500E systems available too on other German websites. Like this site for example

    http://www.sportauspuff-direkt.com/Sportauspuff/MERCEDES_Mercedes_E_Klasse_Sportauspuff_W124/Fox_Sportauspuff_Mercedes_E_Klasse_W124_Stufenheck _E420_4_2l_E500_5_0l_2_x_55mm_Dieseloptik_Rohr_70m m_.html?cPath=2278_2704_2718_2719&products_id=73469

    Do bear in mind that sometimes they only list the rear silencer – so make sure there are x2 part numbers listed which will be the Y piece and the silencer.

    They don’t list USA as a shipping location on the Ebay listing – but I’m sure they would be able to ship to the USA if asked. BTW- if sending them an email send it in German – otherwise they won’t respond!

    Thanks for the info on the Pumps Dave- I might fit the washers just to let me away for the last few weeks of driving before winter then I’ll renew the pumps in the 'off' season. I fitted a Bosch 044 pump to my E36 build..... I liked it! The Fuel lines are not cracked or anything but yes I will renew them too

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Well here’s a quick video of how the 500E sounds now! I love it – sounds really brutal at high revs! But low key at idle – perfect for this car.



    The Iphone Audio isn’t great quality so I thoroughly recommend using earphones and turning it up so you can catch the rumble at idle too!

    Lots of condensation in the exhaust she’s had a few cold starts and is garage bound until the Headlamps get here.

    https://youtu.be/_3IXy5Tmw7Q




    Enjoy
    Last edited by JC220; 08-19-2016 at 02:53 PM.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Sounds nice!

    BTW - I got a reply back fromthe vendor mentioned in post #429 (sportauspuff.de)... appears they are willing to ship to USA for approximately €180. If their catalog price includes VAT (which it appears to) AND if they will remove the VAT charge, looks like it would be $825-$850 USD delivered to USA. If we have to pay VAT it would be around $925-$950 USD delivered, at the current ~1.13 exchange rates. Hmmm.... I don't need a cat-back exhaust, but nobody sells a bolt-on Y-pipe to delete the resonator, and Leistung said they will not make one... the Fox is looking tempting! I'm impressed with the fit & finish in your photos & video.


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Yeah that shipping charge isn’t bad – if they knock the VAT off that’s a good price too. I see where you asked for pics at the tips Dave in post #429 – here’s some more pics of the fitment.

    IMG_1713.JPGIMG_1714.JPGIMG_1720.JPGIMG_1708.JPG


    The Tips are not really visible at all unless you crouch down (Just like the stock tips) Then you can see the edge of the silencer too.

    IMG_1711.JPG

    It does fit really nice – with the exception of that one area where at the curve on the double pipes it comes very close to the body. I suspect there is some tolerance in their moulds and also how the factory cats are bolted up on your car / condition of Engine / Gearbox mounts etc. On mine if I moved the exhaust by hand it would touch the edges of 2 heat shields at this location. So I pried the edges of the heat shields back a little and now no matter how much I try to move the exhaust around now it does not touch any more. I’ll try to gets pics of this tight area when I am replacing the Pump seals.

    For the price I’m blown away by the quality! () I think they have underpriced it really! I would like another one for my E36 project car but that’ll have to wait until early next year

    I will get better pics of the whole system soon when I have the car on the road again & up on my friends lift. I can also get a video of the sound when driving if anyone wants it.



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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    I really like that it retains stock appearance, AND does not require cutting a notch in the bumper. The bumpers are already expensive and may become NLA if they aren't already!


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Well Dave, you were right! It wasn’t just the banjo fittings leaking it was them AND the upper pump’s housing seal. So I am going to go for a single more powerful Fuel Pump as I did on my E36 build. For the 500E I have settled on a Genuine Walbro GSL392 300lph+ Pump with a M10 x 1 x 15mm Fitting for the inlet to allow the stock fuel hose to mount up.



    The Bosch 044 is a loud pump! I’m hoping the Walbro item isn’t just as loud and it’s dimensions should make it fit into the bracket a little better.


    Also as well as just renewing the leaking fuel pumps- this one will offer an upgrade too. Should I add a NOS setup in the future this pump will capable already.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    The Walbro GSL392 is not quiet. It's not as loud as the Bosch 044, but it is louder than the stock twin Bosch pumps. If you do get the GSL392, you can use the factory mounting bracket and fuel filter that was stock on the very, very late build 124 chassis with single fuel pump. Everything fits perfectly.

    Another option, for stock power levels, is using the late factory single pump which is dead silent. It's made by Pierburg and you can't hear it over the engine... and, it pulls a tiny amount of electrical current; only around 5A. It's good for 420-450hp max, I think... at least RENNtech used the same stock pump on their W210 E60 builds which are over 400hp. But, I'm not sure if it will push the extra pressure desired for a NOS system over ~125 shot.


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    Re: OWNER - JC220



    I did go for the Walbro Pump Dave I think it'll be just the ticket. For now I will slot this pump into the twin pump bracket that's on the car. (One slot empty) but when I am buying the new Fuel Hoses from MB I will get the later braket you mention so it looks more like original fitment.

    I finally got the Air Pump unplugged today. They have the connecter well buried those sneaky germans - headlamp Air Scoop had to come out too. No rust lurking which is good - usually this corner is bad in our climate.

    IMG_1722.JPG

    The Airpump is totally silent now at cold startup etc so the bearing is good- it must be the internals which are noisy when activated. In any case we do not need the Air Pump here for emmisions testing or anything. Some day I will get the Delete Pulley and remove it.

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  31. #438
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Well the new Walbro pump got here today so I took the old assembly out & binned both pumps.

    IMG_1749.JPG

    As can be seen in the pic the Walbro pump + it's sound deadening sleeve are the exact diameter of one of the existing pumps. Plus the hard lines hook up perfect. (Dry fit for now until the correct size crush washers get here) The single pump is secured with a stainless steel tie so it's not going anywhere. The fuel pump is positioned in the lower holder where the fuel tank hose fits on. New Knecht fuel filter fitted too.

    IMG_1756.JPG

    Question- the Walbro banjo outlet has no check valve in it. Whereas the 500E's pumps did. Dave, do you think I should fit the checked valve into the new pump?

    IMG_1753.JPG

    I presume the check valve is there to maintain fuel system pressure after shutdown. But If it was simply fitted for the old pump's benefit then maybe I can use the Walbro fitting w/out check valve.


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    I used the original Bosch check valve with the Walbro on my installation.
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    Dave M.
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    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
    Click here for my YouTube channel

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  35. #440
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Thanks Dave, do I need to run 2 pumps still? I figured the single pump would work on its own since it's got a higher output.

    Since both my Bosch pumps are original I don't even think the one that's not leaking is fit for re-use.
    Last edited by JC220; 08-23-2016 at 04:36 PM.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    No need for 2 pumps... I was just enjoying the old-school MB overkill. The late 124's used a single pump as I mentioned earlier. I am using the Walbro as a high-pressure/high-flow pump to support a dry nitrous system.

    Dave M.
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    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
    Click here for my YouTube channel

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  38. #442
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    The Walbro pump install was completed last night- no more fuel leaks!

    I made a new harness with heavy gauge quality copper auto wire- soldered both ends. This is because the original fuel pump loom has 2 pairs of cables inside (slightly thinner gauge) for powering the twin pump setup.

    So now a single pair of thicker cables power the single upgrade fuel pump.The single Walbro pump is quieter than the old twin pumps. Maybe my old pumps were louder than normal since they were past their best- who knows. But now the pump has a quieter whine to it that's not any near as noticeable as the car was before. And to think it pushes more fuel than those twin pumps- nice!

    I can't fit the other new headlamp just yet- Im actually in Berlin currently!
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    The 500E has it’s headlamps fitted now & ready for the MOT re-test tomorrow morning. I still need to set the beam tonight when it gets dark.


    When in Berlin last weekend we visited the Classic Remise- awesome place. It has a very large collection of classics which are on show and / or in real ‘shops’ getting restored.


    Some pics attached of the cars there on the day we visited. Our favourite was the 300SEL 6.3 AMG


    There was also a 500E there- maybe someone on the forum recognises it?

    IMG_1833.JPGIMG_1799.JPGIMG_1803.JPGIMG_1804.JPGIMG_1805.JPGIMG_1815.JPGIMG_1817.JPGIMG_1826.JPG

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    I've just picked up on your comments about the single fuel pump being somewhat quieter than the original twin pump set up. Can u describe if poss what the old set up sounded like?
    I ask because I have an odd muffled whine from the back of my 500e. It is only occasionally distuishable between 20 - 45 mph. It does not change in pitch, is present whether under acceleration or overrunm, but the frequency does increase slightly at the higher end of the "envelope ". When slowing down, one can follow the sound down to about 15 mph, at which point it disappears.
    Does this sound familiar?

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Hi r44raven, the Fuel Pump noise from my old twin Fuel Pumps can be heard in the exhaust video I posted not long ago. Just before the car starts up & during running you can hear the fuel pump whine.

    I could not ever hear the fuel pumps whilst driving though- I think you couldn't hear them in your car either whilst moving. They can be heard inside the car at standstill but after that road noise easily drowns them out even at low speeds. If the whine is relative with speed then it could maybe be the diff or a wheel bearing going out. (Just off the top of my head that's where I would look first)

  46. #447
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Hi JC220! What has always confused me is that the pitch of the whine doesn't change; all my previous experiences of diff/wheel bearing problems have always demonstrated
    change in pitch. And i've put almost 10k miles on the car since I bought it - without any change in the volume of the noise.
    Thanks for your thoughts - as they say think I'll "let it develop "!
    By the way, hope all goes well with the MOT

  47. #448
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    The 500E passed it’s MOT this morning – the headlamps were all that was needed for the re-test.


    I set the beam alignment last night and took it for a drive – wow what a difference with those E500 headlamps and the driving lamps. Although not a requirement for the MOT I also set the beam alignment for the driving lamp beam (High Beam) – which out of the box was pointing to the Sky. In fact the aligment of the new headlamps was way off but that’s to be expected. It’s CRITICAL that anyone fitting new headlamps has the beam alignment correctly set before venturing out on the road at night for the first time.

    IMG_1875.JPG
    IMG_1879.JPG

    I also treated it to another Oil change even though it’s only been about 1k km since the last change. It had started to turn black as the detergents cleaned up the inside of the motor. When I looked in through the oil cap before the bearing covers were tan coloured. (But Zero sludge) now they are white again that Shell Helix Oil has worked wonders.


    I have decided to keep running the car on the 10w 40 Helix – since it’s so good at keeping the engine clean but also the car run’s at 2.75 Bar Oil Pressure at hot idle so it’s happy with this Oil. Running Fully Synthetic Oil in a early 90’s Benz is wasted on me since I would rather change the oil much more frequently. (Twice a year regardless of mileage) I usually fit Knecht filters but thought I’d make the long trip to the dealer’s for the Genuine Filter this time. Took it out of the box and it’s branded Knecht inside also

    At least it comes with a sump plug crush washer

    IMG_1880.JPG



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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Looking good mate. That Shell oil is good but not the best. I did run this stuff for a while and then changed over to the MB genuine oil - fully synthetic. Motor looked seriously clean after running this stuff and the car ran so much better. I'd recommend it!

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Hi Bill, thanks for the info. Did the Oil Pressure drop any at hot idle with the fully synthetic lighter grade oil?

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by JC220 View Post
    Hi Bill, thanks for the info. Did the Oil Pressure drop any at hot idle with the fully synthetic lighter grade oil?
    No it didn't - the same as running the Shell oil.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Well I did get the Oil change completed and filled it to this level as recommended-

    IMG_1885.JPG


    I took another look & cannot find a MB fully Synthetic 5w40 Oil currently available with 229.3 approval. They are 229.5 and 229.51 approval Oils which are incorrect for the m119 motor IMO in particular due to the Oil Filter.


    Our m119’s have paper pleat / Cellulose Oil Filters. To run Fully Synthetic Oil a Fleece type Filter should be used – but they are not available for m119’s to my knowledge. The Fleece Filters are designed for use with newer Synthetic Oils and as such they are available for newer models of Mercedes but not m119’s (M119’s were not ‘designed’ for use with Synthetic Oils). Therefore the advantage of extended service intervals with Fully Synthetic Oils is gone due to the limit of the service life of the paper Oil Filter element.


    I have changed the Oil in a 2002 S500 Mercedes where the previous mechanic had used a Paper Oil Filter with the Fully Synthetic Oil. The Paper Filter had broken down and some of it was stuck inside the Oil feed tube in the filter housing. Not good at all. I removed all the debris and fitted the correct MB Fleece Oil Filter.


    Of course you can still run Fully Synthetic Oil and keep to the regular Oil Change interval due to the Oil Filter but then – where’s the advantage of running a thinner grade more expensive oil? 229.3 10w40 Oil is what I run in all my w124’s and what is ‘correct’ spec for that era of MB motor IMO.


    Given the paper Oil Filter breakdown risk (The only type of Oil Filter available for a m119 to my knowledge) and that the Helix has the correct MB 229.3 approval I will stick with it I think. That is, unless Dave chimes in with a MB Fleece Oil Filter Part number for m119


    Edit – I guess this describes my Rant perfectly but in more detail-

    http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124...synthetic.html

    Last edited by JC220; 09-03-2016 at 03:00 PM.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    I can't believe I am being stupid enough to respond to an oil thread, but here goes: Don't go nuts over this stuff. Also, there is absolutely no substance to the "fleece must be used for synthetic in a Benz". That is complete nonsense, and indeed, most of the engines we have that use synthetic oil exclusively do not use a fleece filter. Use whatever filter is specified for the engine, and change it at the specified interval. That is all you need to do. Also, if that cellulose filter that came apart in your 112/113 engine did that with less than 13,000 or so miles on it, it did that because it was a POS filter, not because it was paper. The Mickey Mouse/no name/ElCheapo version of a brand-name you have heard of/standard equipment at the quick lube paper filter will do that with as little was 4000 miles on it. We pull them out in several pieces 5000 miles old all day long. 229.5 is absolutely fine, and is the correct substitution for anything that originally specified 229.3. Indeed, 229.51 is a low/zero ash formulation for diesels with particle filters, so it's not the best choice for these engines. If you still want to go nuts, you have many choices. One that may suit you can be found at Mercedes-Benz and Porsche dealers, possibly some other places, and it is a Mobil1 5W-50. It meets 229.3. IIRC, Porsche dealers had it for the Carrera GT, and Benz dealers had it for the SLR.
    But don't worry about 229.5. It is simply a slightly longer life qualification of what is basically 229.3
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    No I'm happy with the 229.3 spec Shell Oil- I was just qualifying my reluctance to run a fully synthetic Oil. (In reference to post #449)
    Last edited by JC220; 09-03-2016 at 05:31 PM.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    I've been running RedLine synthetic oil with Hengst filters for many years now, with zero problems. As far as I know, a Hengst filter is at least as good as an MB factory filter in terms of quality. I've never had a quality aftermarket filter (Hengst, Mann, Mahle or Knecht) fail after any mileage, on any engine (M119, M117 or M104).

    Cheers,
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    If memory serves me right it was a Mahle Filter in the S500 that had failed. Indeed I don't know where anyone around here would be able to find a no brand 'Chinese' Oil filter. It can happen with any car I guess but it's scary picking bits of oil filter out of your car. With respect lets- not get into how or why that filter may have failed. Point is- they can fail which is why I'm more than happy to run even shorter than specified service intervals. My 500E will do minimal miles really so an oil change even once annually would likely be in the 1k miles range.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    I've been running RedLine synthetic oil with Hengst filters for many years now, with zero problems. As far as I know, a Hengst filter is at least as good as an MB factory filter in terms of quality. I've never had a quality aftermarket filter (Hengst, Mann, Mahle or Knecht) fail after any mileage, on any engine (M119, M117 or M104).

    Cheers,
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    Quite so. And for those that may not know, all of those that Gerry mentioned ARE "factory" filters. One of those brands will be what comes out of the box with the star on it.
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    In case anybody was wondering... the OE/dealer filter is Knecht. Yes, I know other OEM's may supply them at times, but for the past 5 or so years I've only received Knecht at the dealer...




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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Just to continue the Oil discussion




    See the pic attached – there is a washer at the top bolt of the Oil Filter Housing. I noticed a very light oil stain on the top of the housing when I removed it for the filter change. I see that if a circlip is removed the bolt will pull right through and I could fit a Copper Washer there next time around to stop any slight Oil weeps. Does anyone replace this washer or should I just leave it alone?

    IMG_1884.JPG


    I took it for about a 50 miles drive today and it runs like a wet dream. Hot Oil pressure after the drive at idle as per the pic – it’s a healthy motor

    IMG_1891.JPG


    I also bought that First Gear Start module that was advertised on 500E Board so that should be here in a couple of weeks. Fitting the new pair of Aux Fans in the next task to begin this week.


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    I always replace the washers and o-rings with those supplied with the oil filter kits. Quality oil filter kit should have replacement silver washer for that one at the top of the oil filter housing.

    I never have to replace the oil drain bolt washers because I suck my oil out through the dipstick tube with a Topsider-type oil extraction device. Much easier and cleaner than doing it from below, although you don't have the opportunity to visually examine things underneath the car when you change oil from the top.

    Always loosen, remove & replace the oil filter first before extracting oil. Also, best to change oil with a warm engine. Let the engine sit at least 10-15 mins after shutting it off, before beginning the drain/extraction process. This lets things drain down to the pan as much as possible.

    Cheers,
    Gerry


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Thanks Gerry- yes I let the Oil Drain for a few hours yesterday and changed the filter first so as that oil isn't trapped in there.

    Yes I use the new O Rings for the cap & Copper washer for the sump plug supplied with the new Filter. But they never come with a washer for that cap securing bolt. I have loads of Copper Crush washers in all metric sizes so I would have one that would fit in there.

    The original washer is a steel one so it seems it's not designed to be a crush washer but it would provide a better seal of it was maybe- but then will require changing every oil change. I'll replace it next oil change anyway I think just to see if it will dry up the top cap.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    As with all Mercedes-Benz cartridge type oil filters having a free spinning through bolt, the sealing washer between the bolt head and top cap is a finely finished steel washer. On the some versions of it, one side is slightly beveled. The beveled/rounded edged portion of it goes against the cap. Some later versions of this washer are smoothly machined on both sides, and obviously, they can go on either way. They do not usually come in M119 filter kits because M119 used a circlip on the inside that was intended to conveniently pop the cap up out of the filter housing as the bolt was unscrewed. The steel ring doesn't compress and simply gets reused, so without the risk of you ever losing or dropping the steel seal ring, there's no reason to supply one in a kit. Interestingly enough, there was often a copper washer installed between the circlip and the inside of the cap simply serving as a soft smooth surface for the circlip to push and possibly spin against. So, just use and reuse your steel washer. It's the right thing to do. I am not in a position to supply part numbers right now, but if somebody needs them, bump me on this issue and I'll get them. Overall, this "cap attached to the bolt" is a somewhat curious arrangement that was used on no other MB passenger car engine. It works well enough on the 124 and 129 vehicles, but most annoyingly, it actually prevents you from getting the cap out of the car on some 140 models unless the motor mounts are literally like new. I mean new yesterday. That being the case, most of the people that worked on M119 motors for a living got in the habit of simply disassembling this entire arrangement, throwing away the circlip and the inner washer. The tragically hip paid attention to, and were careful to retain and reuse the steel washer. Others, and this was most often the case, did not know or did not care about the steel washer and why or why not it may have been chosen by the engineers, and they just grabbed whatever copper washer fit on the bolt and used that. Interestingly enough, a copper ring that works just fine often is present in the filter kits, but this copper ring, as I pointed out, actually belonged in a section of the assembly that "wasn't supposed to be" disassembled during a filter change, so I always thought that this was simply a misallocation error from the people that originally put together the contents of the filter kits. Yes, this kind of thing happens all the time, and often persists into perpetuity. So, ironically, a copper ring that can fits on the top, where the steel ring is actually supposed to be, is often present in the filter kits. All of this is why you will so often find a copper seal instead of the correct steel washer between the bolt head and the oil filter cap on a M119, especially if it is in a 140. By interesting contrast, the M116/117 engines use a nearly identical filter arrangement, except without the retaining circlip on the underside of the cap. The filter kits for those most conveniently include the correct steel washer. I believe the assumption there was since the cap/bolt could always be completely removed from each other, the risk of losing the steel ring was always present, hence a new one was always supplied in the kit...
    Last edited by Klink; 09-04-2016 at 03:24 PM.
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Excellent description Klink, thankyou. That makes sense- I'll leave that steel ring in there then.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Apologies for the crap pic attached- but it seems item 20 is the Steel Ring. I might order a new one with the next lot of parts from Germany.

    Edit - also for those interested attached is a full up to date list of 229.3 Approved Oils I printed from WIS.
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    Last edited by JC220; 09-04-2016 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    The one supplied with Hengst kits is NEVER copper and ALWAYS steel.


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    The one supplied with Hengst kits is NEVER copper and ALWAYS steel.


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    Hi Gerry - this appears to be the Hengst Filter X Ref if I'm lookinbg it up correctly- http://www.hengst-katalog.de/en/filt.../E153H%2520D25

    Are you saying you DO fit the new Steel washer on top of the Filter Housing Cap when you do an Oil Change? (Since the Hengst Filters come with the Steel Rings) I might just order a Hengst filter to get the new Steel Ring.

    (I’m pretty sure the Steel Ring on mine has an edge to it indicating it is crushed a little– perhaps from over torquing in the past)


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    they are not STEEL...they are ALuminium washers
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    Re: OWNER - JC220



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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    As with all Mercedes-Benz cartridge type oil filters having a free spinning through bolt, the sealing washer between the bolt head and top cap is a finely finished steel washer. On the some versions of it, one side is slightly beveled. The beveled/rounded edged portion of it goes against the cap. Some later versions of this washer are smoothly machined on both sides, and obviously, they can go on either way. They do not usually come in M119 filter kits because ... The steel ring doesn't compress and simply gets reused, so ... there's no reason to supply one in a kit. ... So, just use and reuse your steel washer. It's the right thing to do.

    So, ironically, a copper ring that can fits on the top, where the steel ring is actually supposed to be, is often present in the filter kits. All of this is why you will so often find a copper seal instead of the correct steel washer between the bolt head and the oil filter cap on a M119, especially if it is in a 140.
    Klink is correct. The steel aluminum silver-colored washer on top DOES NOT come with the filter kits. It is not normally replaced. The copper shiny brown colored washer included with the filter is for the oil pan drain plug. NOT the filter housing.


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by lowman View Post
    they are not STEEL...they are ALuminium washers
    The one I'm talking about is steel. I pick them up with my magnet all day long.

    The steel washer in question is item #23 in the EPC photos. It should be number #20, but they are shown out of order. The old part numbner is 119 990 01 40 and as of a few years ago it was subbed to a 601 number that I don't have in front of me at the present.
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    The one supplied with Hengst kits is NEVER copper and ALWAYS steel.


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    Then Hengst is doing a damn good aftermarket M119 kit, which would be no surprise. Their stuff it top notch, but it would be the first ever that I have seen that had the steel washer in a M119 kit. We will await your Hengst M119 kit inspection upon your return.
    Last edited by Klink; 09-04-2016 at 06:59 PM.
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    I'll have to look in my M119 Hengst kits when I get back home on the 12th.

    I can tell you 100% definitively that Hengst includes both the copper oil drain pan washer and the aluminum (steel?) silver colored washer for the top of the M117 oil filter housing. I replace the M117 silver washer every time I change my oil at 3,000 miles on my 560SEC.


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    Here is the Hengst M117 engine kit. You can see the copper drain plug and aluminum filter canister washers.

    The larger diameter copper "crush" washer isn't used for most M117 applications. I have collection of dozens of these copper washers as well as the smaller drain plug washers.

    Cheers,
    Gerry




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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quite the possible issue, Honch. I've always found it in the OEM brand and MB dealer 116/117 kits, but never in a dealer M119 kit...
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Klink is correct. The steel aluminum silver-colored washer on top DOES NOT come with the filter kits. It is not normally replaced. The copper shiny brown colored washer included with the filter is for the oil pan drain plug. NOT the filter housing.

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    Klink - my MB Dealer is letting me order item #'s 23 & 20 in the pic. Cost is miniscule so I am going to order them anyway and see what turns up. (The number has been superseded to A601078017)

    Regarding the First Gear Start module - big thanks to Doolar for forwarding me the Software needed! I intend to install the FGS Module as soon as it gets here in a couple of weeks.

    I would like to install it so it is activated with the S switch beside the gearlever. This is the sportier mode of shift patterns / driving so it suits the first gear start. Whereas I want to retain the E switch mode as is - with it's 2nd gear start and lower RPM upshifts.

    Doolar installed his installed his own FGS module in just the same manner as I described above - thus the FGS module is active only when the S switch is engaged. However, he reports the car 'losses' 4 th gear in the S mode since the FGS was added. But when he switches to E mode all is fine again and his car upshifts into 4th as before. So it seems FGS module related.

    Has anyone experienced any such problems with the FGS modules? Or how have you guys installed yours? I think Dave maybe runs one of these at least.

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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    its kinda weird that they STILL supply some Copper washers..as you are NOT supposed to use Copper and aluminum together.
    At the mercedes dealership,we ALWAYS used aluminum washers on the drain plugs,and these aplications.

    just a fun fact
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Quote Originally Posted by lowman View Post
    its kinda weird that they STILL supply some Copper washers..as you are NOT supposed to use Copper and aluminum together.
    At the mercedes dealership,we ALWAYS used aluminum washers on the drain plugs,and these aplications.

    just a fun fact
    It’s funny you should mention that – any crush washers I buy from MB are usually aluminium! It seems Knecht didn’t get that memo......
    But having said that I much prefer copper crush washers. They are a little softer and provide a better seal - which is why I have 4 sets of copper washers. (1000+ in all sizes )


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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Like I said up above, the inclusion of the small copper crush washer in the M119 kit is a misallocation mistake made by the people that originally put the blueprint for the kits together. They were likely using the same photo and number reference that is shown in the EPC, and that has been shown in the parts microfilms since this engine was introduced. The small copper washer, just like the un-supplied steel washer, is never actually supposed to be "disassembled out of" or otherwise exposed from the cap/bolt assembly. It belongs on the INSIDE of the cap, above the circlip! The small copper washer in this assembly functions as a soft washer for the circlip to abraid against as it pushes the cap out of the filter housing. It serves no sealing function in the M119 application whatsoever, and there is no reason for it to be supplied in the kit. The larger copper washer obviously is there for the drain plug, and the drain plug application on this vehicle is steel against steel.
    So, to say for the last time, the confusion comes from the fact that a small uncompressed copper washer WITHOUT any sealing function IS supplied in the kit, while a steel washer that DOES have a sealing function is NOT supplied in the kit. Neither really matters, because the copper washer is NOT ever consumed/compressed in the process, and neither is the steel washer, and people are doubly confused because the kit has this misallocation of supplied parts AND multiple oil changers before you have disassembled the cap/bolt assembly for no good reason...
    Last edited by Klink; 09-05-2016 at 01:48 PM.
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    Re: OWNER - JC220

    Tonight I started into renewing the twin Aux Fans. The ones on the 500 were squeaking a little when activated so they were due replacement. I bought 2 Trucktec Units and they appear high quality very much like OE fans. I know some other aftermarket Aux fans come with sealed motors and missing some cable clips on the brackets etc but these ones are just like OE. The frame is aluminium on them – not plastic.


    So they should be mounted up tomorrow night. I am following GSXR’s DIY and removed the Radiator first. Should have it back together tomorrow night but at the same time I will flush the matrix / block and re-fill with new correct antifreeze. (Blue stuff was in there) One Hose clamp was non original so I bought 3 new MB ones (Minimum order qty) to replace the rad hose clamps.


    Happily – I discovered the 500E has a new Nissens Radaitor installed and the condenser looks less than a year old. All like brand new without a scratch on them so I was very careful pulling the rad.

    IMG_1901.JPGIMG_1902.JPG

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