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Sanchez
05-18-2012, 03:59 PM
I was wondering one thing. People always say, the real E60s are the E60 Limiteds because those 12 cars were based on E500 Limiteds. But what if I had an E500 Limited and sent it to a later date to AMG?
Never thought of that :lolhit:

Ron500E
05-18-2012, 05:38 PM
I was wondering one thing. People always say, the real E60s are the E60 Limiteds because those 12 cars were based on E500 Limiteds. But what if I had an E500 Limited and sent it to a later date to AMG?
Never thought of that :lolhit:

Hello Sanchez:

E60's came in the standard and Limited versions. All the Limited's were was a special color, special upholstry and special wood I think, along with wheels.

Here are the 124.036 models that Daimler-Benz sold:
1991 500E
1992 500E
1993 500E
1994 E500
1994 E500 Limited (MAYBE ?)
1995 E500
1995 E500 Limited
1995 E60
1995 E60 Limited

AMG offered a 6L conversion early on that were not sold through Mercedes dealers. Private owners could bring their 500E's or 500SL's to Affalterbach and have whatever their wallet desired. Even after the aqusition of AMG by DB owners could (to this day) bring their cars there and have them do whatever they could afford. Today some of AMG's work is outsourced to Vaeth.

I hope someone, with more knowledge than I, will confirm, or dispute what I wrote.

Kind Regards,

Ron

500AMM
05-19-2012, 04:53 AM
Ron - I think the E60 came in 1993, along with the facelift, or around that time. As far as I have read, were all E500 Limiteds produced in 1994. It seems that all E60s were done during 1994 too. Based on Gerrys information were only a few 036 produced in 1995, ending early 1995. Cars sold around are often advertised with wrong MY because the seller use the sales date, not the build date.

I guess both Gerry and Ahmad could chime in here with some correct information.

Sanchez
05-19-2012, 06:26 AM
According to Wikipedia, 120 cars were produced in 1995.

I also read that the E60 was available for the 1993 and 1994 model, but how is it supposed to work if the E500 Limited only came in 1994. And what exactly are 500E 6.0s then? Did they exist before the E60 or were those 500Es sent to AMG at a later date. Because those would be the "real" and first E60s then. And probably that was the case with the 1993 E60, which was not a Limited, but still here before the E60 Limited, and therefore the 'real, facelifted' E60.

Let me correct that list from Ron500E by the way:
(didn't count pre-facelift AMG models)

1990 500E
1991 500E
1992 500E
1993 500E
1993 E500
1993 E60 AMG
1994 E500
1994 E500 Limited
1994 E60 Limited
1995 E500

I don't think there was an E60 in 1995, and I don't know if there was an E500 Limited in 1995.

But anyway - that wasn't really my question. The question was more how to check a real E60 Limited. Because if it says E60 Limited, it doesn't have to mean it is one of the 12 original cars. It could be an E500 Limited sent to AMG at a later date. See my point? :)

Ron500E
05-19-2012, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the corrections 500AMM and Sanchez.

What we REALLY need is Rikipedia (2Phast).

Kind Regards,

Ron

gsxr
05-19-2012, 01:30 PM
Guys, make sure you are not confusing production year with model year. By definition, there cannot be a 1993 E500 or E60. Period. The E500 and E60 are "facelifted" models and are 1994+ model year, despite the fact that they could have been manufactured in 1993. This is because MB begins production 3-6 months prior to the model year.

Example: My 1994 E500 was produced in early July 1993. Some might (wrongly) call this a "1993 E500" but again, there is no such thing. Despite the 07/1993 date on the door jamb decal, it's a 1994 E500. For USA models, there is a digit in the VIN which specifies model year, so it's simple to determine actual model year. For Euro models, there is no simple method to determine model year, and I'm not sure exactly what defines a model year (specifically, how does one prove their E500/E60 is a "1995" model year? Beats me.) The only clear break is between 1993 and 1994 due to the facelift and different naming/badging on the trunk.

I think this was already mentioned above, but any 1993 or earlier 500E which received a 6.0L engine from AMG was not a true "E60". I guess you could call it a 600E, or a 500E 6.0, or just debadge it entirely...

:seesaw:

Sanchez
05-19-2012, 02:45 PM
Why would it not be a true E60? An E60 is basically just like a 500E 6.0, that's a bit like saying a 220E just isn't a true E220. :D

I don't know what's correct, to call the cars by model year or production year. I thought production year sounds logical because that's the year when they're actually produced and have the changes made/applied. For example even if an E500 was sold in early 1994 and produced in late 1993, it's a 1993 model I guess because it has all the changes that apply for month/1993 to this car (such as the facelift in this case, which is the most obvious one).

But that still doesn't answer my question how to identify a fake E60 Limited hehe... :)

2phast
05-19-2012, 03:10 PM
Guys, make sure you are not confusing production year with model year. By definition, there cannot be a 1993 E500 or E60. Period. The E500 and E60 are "facelifted" models and are 1994+ model year, despite the fact that they could have been manufactured in 1993. This is because MB begins production 3-6 months prior to the model year.

Example: My 1994 E500 was produced in early July 1993. Some might (wrongly) call this a "1993 E500" but again, there is no such thing. Despite the 07/1993 date on the door jamb decal, it's a 1994 E500. For USA models, there is a digit in the VIN which specifies model year, so it's simple to determine actual model year. For Euro models, there is no simple method to determine model year, and I'm not sure exactly what defines a model year (specifically, how does one prove their E500/E60 is a "1995" model year? Beats me.) The only clear break is between 1993 and 1994 due to the facelift and different naming/badging on the trunk.

I think this was already mentioned above, but any 1993 or earlier 500E which received a 6.0L engine from AMG was not a true "E60". I guess you could call it a 600E, or a 500E 6.0, or just debadge it entirely...

:seesaw:

Daves right on here.

If you ordered a 6.0l AMG converstion through Mercedes (in 1992-1993), it's sale designation was "500e 6.0l". These were never marketed as a E60. The "E" preceeding the numbers didn't occur till model year 1994. Also, option code "260" was added to the order (elimination of the 500e emblem). So these would arrive with only a AMG logo on the trunklid.

What you see sometimes is that owners purchase and add a E60 emblem. Thus confusing the issue even further.

Sanchez
05-19-2012, 03:50 PM
Yes because the 'E60' name didn't exist yet, but it's basically the same car. I think it had 374 PS instead of 381. And even those 381, I read somewhere that they're rather 400-410 PS, and that 381 was just an official number because V8 engines were not allowed to exceed the power of V12 engines at the time.

Well who cares, and I am still still still wondering how do identify a fake E60 Limited LOL!

PS: The thing with the badging is just the same like on all AMG cars from that time, like the 190E 2.5 for example. Or even older cars like the 450 SEL 6.3 etc.

500AMM
05-19-2012, 05:04 PM
Well who cares, and I am still still still wondering how do identify a fake E60 Limited LOL!
It's not that complicated - you only check the datasheet for the E60 AMG Limited you come over. The equipment code for Limited is 958.

My "600E" was converted at AMG in 1994, but I will never ever put neither an E60 badge nor an AMG badge on it. I neither like the 6.0 naming, so if I ever put on a badge, it will be my selfmade 600E badge. And it will be in the car color.

Sanchez
05-19-2012, 05:17 PM
Well 600E makes you think it's a V12. I think no badging is the best solution :) People will know when you hit the gas hehe.

And of course 'E60' wouldn't be the right badge, that's like putting the new-style 'E500' on a 500E :)

Anyway - I know that you can check the VIN and the code for the Limited.

But there were only 12 'real' E60 AMGs which were based on E500 Limiteds. Let's say you want to buy one of those 12 real E60s, and one day you come across an E60 Limited. Who will guaranty that it's one of the twelve? It could just have been a stock E500 Limited sent to conversion to AMG at a later date. And not one of the original cars. I have the feeling people are missing my point, lol! :D

500AMM
05-19-2012, 05:34 PM
If it's an original built E60 AMG Limited it's listed in the VIN datasheet.
If it's a converted 036 of any type, even if it's done at AMG, it DOES NOT have that designation in the VIN datasheet.
Keep in mind that the E60 do also have other suspension.

About my 600E badge, I like what I like.

Sanchez
05-19-2012, 05:42 PM
Well the suspension could just have been installed aswell. And with the designation, do you mean the 958 code?

About the 600E thing, I didn't mean to upset you hehe, it just makes me think of the 92' (?) 600CE conversion which had a V12 ;)

gerryvz
05-19-2012, 06:38 PM
That is correct about 120 cars being built in 1995 -- that's my data that I added to Wikipedia per the factory.

2phast
05-19-2012, 06:54 PM
If it's an original built E60 AMG Limited it's listed in the VIN datasheet.
If it's a converted 036 of any type, even if it's done at AMG, it DOES NOT have that designation in the VIN datasheet.
Keep in mind that the E60 do also have other suspension.

About my 600E badge, I like what I like.

Yes exactly. The only "Fake E60" that I would consider a fake, is a car converted by someone OTHER than AMG. If its converted by AMG its not fake. Don't read too much into having "one of the 12". There were many, many more than that sent to AMG for conversion. All of them have very good value and are collectable cars (assuming you have documentation on whom did the conversion)

gsxr
05-19-2012, 07:25 PM
If it's an original built E60 AMG Limited it's listed in the VIN datasheet.
Correct. One of "The Twelve" will have both option code 957 (AMG Package, in this case the 6.0 engine / E60) along with option code 958 (Limited). I've only seen two true E60 Limiteds where I got the VIN numbers and could verify codes 957+958. Sample datacard attached.

:apl:

Sanchez
05-20-2012, 05:59 AM
Correct. One of "The Twelve" will have both option code 957 (AMG Package, in this case the 6.0 engine / E60) along with option code 958 (Limited). I've only seen two true E60 Limiteds where I got the VIN numbers and could verify codes 957+958. Sample datacard attached.

:apl:

Exactly - but now imagine following situation: Someone has bought an E500 Limited, which it includes code 958. Then, this person wishes their E500 Limited just had a little bit more power. So they send it to AMG for a conversion. Now the car also has code 957 in the datasheet. And this car is not one of "the twelve" :) This was my point.

I know they're all 'real' if they've been converted by AMG. I'm not really interested in 'one of the twelve' actually, I was just wondering how people who are on the chase after these cars actually identify them as 'the real E60s' :)

PS @ gsxr: Was that emoticon a reference to the fact it's impossible to get a car like that? :D

bing
05-20-2012, 07:27 AM
Sanchez, an E500 Limited taken to AMG for conversion (after factory) by its current owner will not have 957 code on the datasheet. I don't think that AMG themselves will reprint/update a datasheet to include this code , instead, as 2phast mentioned, all you will get is documentations/bills that this was done. Datasheet is MB spec identifier when the car rolls out of the factory/showroom.

Sanchez
05-20-2012, 07:39 AM
Hmm I don't know, the datacard that gsxr has posted says 'E500' but I know someone who owns an E60 AMG (which started life as a normal (non-limited) E500, and was sent to AMG later the same year) and when decoding the VIN, it said 'E60' - so he contacted Mercedes-Benz and ordered the datacard, and it clearly said 'E60'. His car also has code 957. Is it possible that you can decide to change it, or not?

gerryvz
05-20-2012, 09:26 AM
I don't believe that a VIN can be retrofitted or appended once the car leaves manufacturing. Any work done post-manufacturing can only be documented with paperwork, but the factory build card/sheet can't be retroactively changed.


Sent using Tapatalk HD

2phast
05-20-2012, 11:39 AM
Exactly - but now imagine following situation: Someone has bought an E500 Limited, which it includes code 958. Then, this person wishes their E500 Limited just had a little bit more power. So they send it to AMG for a conversion. Now the car also has code 957 in the datasheet.

Not possible, once the VIN is created (based on options etc.) and assigned, it can not be updated. The situation you explain is not possible.

Also, don't rely on the Russian VIN site to provide accurate information. That site provides model information that may state the vehicle is a AMG when in reality it is not. Use the online EPC to pull the datasheet.

bing
05-20-2012, 11:43 AM
I don't believe that a VIN can be retrofitted or appended once the car leaves manufacturing. Any work done post-manufacturing can only be documented with paperwork, but the factory build card/sheet can't be retroactively changed.


Sent using Tapatalk HD


Not possible, once the VIN is created (based on options etc.) and assigned, it can not be updated. The situation you explain is not possible.

Also, don't rely on the Russian VIN site to provide accurate information. That site provides model information that may state the vehicle is a AMG when in reality it is not. Use the online EPC to pull the datasheet.

Nuff said!!

Sanchez
05-20-2012, 11:54 AM
That site provides model information that may state the vehicle is a AMG when in reality it is not.

I know - this is why after that, the guy contacted Mercedes-Benz (also, it wasn't the russian site, not sure this site is even online anymore).

Hmm I don't understand... I can only say what was told to me. But I remember, and I am 100% sure, that it said E60. I will try to contact the guy again. Of course, if this can't be changed, then it must be easy to spot real E60 Limiteds.

I researched a bit and indeed it seems like you can't change VINs, but people can swap them with other cars or assign new VINs illegaly. Do you think this car was stolen then? And the people didn't know enough about the car, so they just entered 'E60' instead of 'E500'?

gerryvz
05-20-2012, 12:37 PM
Look, the Russian VIN site is not reliable and is really not worth using.

The best, most accurate and most comprehensive place to get data-card data is via the EPC, for a particular VIN. Whether it's the free MBUSA EPC or the pay-for-play EPC that you get in non-US countries, that is the ultimate fount of knowledge on option-loads for particular cars. As well as a VMI, if you have an "in" to score one for a car you have.

Don't use the Russian site; the inaccuracy and uncertainty is just not worth it.....

Cheers,
Gerry

bing
05-20-2012, 01:01 PM
Of course, if this can't be changed, then it must be easy to spot real E60 Limiteds.?

YES !

2phast
05-20-2012, 01:31 PM
Hmm I don't understand... I can only say what was told to me. But I remember, and I am 100% sure, that it said E60. I will try to contact the guy again. Of course, if this can't be changed, then it must be easy to spot real E60 Limiteds.

I researched a bit and indeed it seems like you can't change VINs, but people can swap them with other cars or assign new VINs illegaly. Do you think this car was stolen then? And the people didn't know enough about the car, so they just entered 'E60' instead of 'E500'?

If the datacard or Mercedes directly provides information that the vehicle is a limited AND a E60, then it was ordered and built that way. It could of been sent to AMG for additional work at a later date. I have seen that happen and it can cause confusion. You end up with a datacard showing the vehicle was ordered and built with AMG options but maybe you have additional receipts that show the vehicle was sent to AMG for conversion. This situation seems to occur mainly with AMG built/ordered vehicles that were ordered with no engine upgrades. The vehicle changes hands and the new owner decides to get the engine upgrades, so he ships the vehicle off to AMG. So now he has AMG documention showing an engine upgrade. If you possess all the facts, its easy to determine what has happened.

Anyone whom might be looking at a E60 probably will see through any type of VIN alteration. Especially at the price they sell for, most sellers would be looking over all the paper work, have the vehicle inspected, pull the VMI etc. Now maybe if you found one really, really cheap, you might be tempted to just buy it without the due diligence.

Just remember "caveat emptor"

Juho
05-20-2012, 02:12 PM
I add my own view to mess up a little more!

I used to work a number of years for a Mercedes dealer and after that I have been working for a small Mercedes specialist. When the cars are made accessory retrofit with the original parts, it's not uncommon that the factory be notified of changes. New option codes appear in the EPC on the next update. This is done because the ordered spare parts in the future would automatically be correct.

Some examples which I have been involved in: W210 orthopedic front seats, W211 different color roof and pilar claddings, W220 Bi-Xenons, many many Commands and Sound Systems, manual to automatic transmission conversion, W251/ W164/ W211 Webasto heaters. I have seen W124021... car with M103 engine in it and correct engine number in datacard on EPC!

This may be due to the fact that here in Finland cars have been ordered without accessories as tax is calculated from a total price of a new car. You don't have to pay tax of accessories when they are installed after the registration.

I am surprised if AMG does not notify of the changes to the Mercedes especially if the car is fairly new.

See attached price lists that you understand how much cars here have paid for! In Finland has been imported only one new 124036 to F1 driver J.J. Lehto

2phast
05-20-2012, 03:58 PM
I add my own view to mess up a little more!

I used to work a number of years for a Mercedes dealer and after that I have been working for a small Mercedes specialist. When the cars are made accessory retrofit with the original parts, it's not uncommon that the factory be notified of changes. New option codes appear in the EPC on the next update. This is done because the ordered spare parts in the future would automatically be correct.

Some examples which I have been involved in: W210 orthopedic front seats, W211 different color roof and pilar claddings, W220 Bi-Xenons, many many Commands and Sound Systems, manual to automatic transmission conversion, W251/ W164/ W211 Webasto heaters. I have seen W124021... car with M103 engine in it and correct engine number in datacard on EPC!

This may be due to the fact that here in Finland cars have been ordered without accessories as tax is calculated from a total price of a new car. You don't have to pay tax of accessories when they are installed after the registration.

I am surprised if AMG does not notify of the changes to the Mercedes especially if the car is fairly new.

See attached price lists that you understand how much cars here have paid for! In Finland has been imported only one new 124036 to F1 driver J.J. Lehto

I don't believe were taling about the same thing here. Your also talking OE Mercedes retro-fits and were discussing AMG retro-fits/conversions. I understand your point though, which is if a Mercedes specialist makes a retro-fit, it is then communicated to Mercedes-Benz and the datacard is updated. But, during the periods were discussing, AMG was not a subsidiary of Mercedes. Yes, they had a tigher relationship than any other tuners (being that they were partially owned by Mercedes) and starting in 1992 you actually could walk into a Mercedes dealership and order a AMG built to your specifications (or order a pre-built model). It is also the first year AMG options were integrated into the VIN.

Case in point. AMG 300e built in 1992, ordered new through Mercedes dealer with a ton of AMG options. No engine upgrades. Same owner for several years, then vehicle sold to new owner who shipped the vehicle to AMG (probably 94/95 time frame) and had it converted to 3.4l (M104 CIS). Receipts from AMG of Germany to prove it, engine stamp etc. If you run the VIN through the EPC, it will list only the AMG options the vehicle was ordered with, not the option code "957" or any updated option code to indicate a AMG motor. Also, this did not occur on AMG conversions done by Westmont (AMG of NA) or BHMA.

Another case. In reference to your comment about "tax" and vehicles being ordered with less options. The W210 E60 is another good example. Because of the tax concerns, there was no offical E60 model. You ordered a E50 and it was built as a E50, it was then pulled and converted to the E60. I should also note that these vehicles never left the AMG facility, they were finalized and then diverted for conversion. Even these vehicles don't have any indication in the VIN that they are E60's. The engine block numbers are also wrong whe you pull the data card, as AMG didn't modify the E50 motor, they removed it and installed a 6.0l motor. So the only way for you to confirm you have a W210 E60 is the check the engine stamp. (or if you have original sales receipt)

This is the first I have ever heard of any information being appended to a VIN, so you need to excuse me for being "skeptical" about such a claim. It would be helpful if you could post some examples of this. A simple comparison of the EPC datacard vs. 3rd party VIN decoders would confirm and/or deny this possibility.

500AMM
05-21-2012, 02:47 AM
I don't believe that a VIN can be retrofitted or appended once the car leaves manufacturing. Any work done post-manufacturing can only be documented with paperwork, but the factory build card/sheet can't be retroactively changed.


Yes this is correct, and the reason is due to one thing - Mercedes-Benz are using SAP.
SAP does not allow to change the first time (originally) entered data on any eqiupment. It can get later revisions, but the entire history chain will never change. If MB/AMG do upgrades and issue a updated VIN record, it is a revision of the first one. I don't know how to find historical data in the EPC, but I'm sure it is there, it have to be there. Scroll down to around post 20 to get some information about SAP: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?774-500E-E500-Production-Breakpoints&highlight=management

500AMM
05-21-2012, 03:27 AM
----------
Update: 22.05. Attachments deleted due to security precautions. I guess those who's interested has seen them by now. I can give out information on request, please PM me.
----------

Since I probably is the only owner - or at least one of very few, in this situation with my 6.0 AMG, I can share the docs I have.
Just for info I've also added the Limited datasheet.

1. the VIN datasheet for the 1992 500E
2. letter from AMG, included an aluminium sticker PN for the E60 transmission upgrade
3. photo of the AMG engine stamp
4. the VIN datasheet for the E500 Limited

The E60 conversion was done in 1994, but the VIN datasheet printed in 2007 doesn't include any of the AMG upgrades. For some reason doesn't the datasheet include all the equipment on the car either, such as - rear roller sun blind, el.seats, el.windows, el.mirror etc.. which most 500E's had.

2phast
05-21-2012, 12:45 PM
Since I probably is the only owner - or at least one of very few, in this situation with my 6.0 AMG, I can share the docs I have.
Just for info I've also added the Limited datasheet.

1. the VIN datasheet for the 1992 500E
2. letter from AMG, included an aluminium sticker PN for the E60 transmission upgrade
3. photo of the AMG engine stamp
4. the VIN datasheet for the E500 Limited

The E60 conversion was done in 1994, but the VIN datasheet printed in 2007 doesn't include any of the AMG upgrades. For some reason doesn't the datasheet include all the equipment on the car either, such as - rear roller sun blind, el.seats, el.windows, el.mirror etc.. which most 500E's had.

Interesting that your letter is written on letterhead that was phased out around 1991. Guess they were trying to use up the old inventory ;-)

Juho
05-21-2012, 01:42 PM
This is the first I have ever heard of any information being appended to a VIN, so you need to excuse me for being "skeptical" about such a claim. It would be helpful if you could post some examples of this. A simple comparison of the EPC datacard vs. 3rd party VIN decoders would confirm and/or deny this possibility.


This should convince you.

Latest conversion that we have done. Normal head unit to Comand DVD APS, VIN: WDC 164 122 1A 245 470 . You can do comparison by your self, please reply to this thread and tell what you have found after you have done that so I can delete VIN because it is one of our customers.

I try to remember to inform next time when we are starting to do a similar job. Then all suspicious EPC license owners can check/ save datacard and re-check it after about a month. Or Is there any voluntar here who wants to add some accessory codes to your cars datacard?

2phast
05-21-2012, 02:40 PM
This should convince you.

Latest conversion that we have done. Normal head unit to Comand DVD APS, VIN: WDC 164 122 1A 245 470 . You can do comparison by your self, please reply to this thread and tell what you have found after you have done that so I can delete VIN because it is one of our customers.

I try to remember to inform next time when we are starting to do a similar job. Then all suspicious EPC license owners can check/ save datacard and re-check it after about a month. Or Is there any voluntar here who wants to add some accessory codes to your cars datacard?

That particular vehicle is not a AMG vehicle, so it really isn't applicable to our discussion. I believe enough information was posted that confirms AMG does not submit VIN changes back to Mercedes (both pre and post merger).

The EPC also will not allow me to pull up the datacard, so someone else is going to have to pull it up. I still am interested in seeing what is listed in the datacard for the sample vehicle you posted though.

2phast
05-21-2012, 02:43 PM
Or Is there any voluntar here who wants to add some accessory codes to your cars datacard?

Yes, please add option code "957" to my car ;-)

500AMM
05-22-2012, 01:57 AM
Interesting that your letter is written on letterhead that was phased out around 1991. Guess they were trying to use up the old inventory ;-)

I'm not familiar with that, but you're probably right since the logo changed to ///// AMG after joining Mercedes. The original document has red logo and layout. Mr.Geistlinger who's signed the letter is still at AMG. I've tried to contact him on phone a couple of times without luck. I hope they can give me copies of the documentation from the conversion.

Alpina
05-22-2012, 07:01 PM
Yes, please add option code "957" to my car ;-)

Haha.. what a brilliant comment

ReVox
12-30-2013, 01:33 PM
Hi Sanchez,

have had just some time and was reading this old thread. I missed one argument by verifying a true E 60 AMG Limited. If so look at the official VIN Data card from Mercedes Benz as well as the original order form/bill when ordered at Mercedes Benz.

The VIN should show E 60 AMG with the both codes 957 + 958. In addition the original order form should show an E 500 Limited (958) including the option code 957 (technic package) with a price for the 957 code of 29,950 DM. Means the total price when ordering was at about 190,000 DM in 1994 already. Then you know that you may buy a true E 60 AMG Limited.

ReVox