PDA

View Full Version : Opinions Wanted - No Start condition after work yesterday



tomer
01-29-2013, 01:34 PM
Good news is I was able to get a flat bed tow truck and my 94 E500 is currently at a local indie shop that was recommended to me.

After work last evening I started the engine as normal, fast cranking, but the interior light would not go out and the fasten seat belt light up on roof near interior light would not stop flashing even though my seat belt was latched.

I have seen this before and it was solved (couple months ago) by turning car off, waiting 5 seconds and restarting. So, I tried this again...

Dooooooooooooooooh...

Next thing I observed is engine would not start, not crank, but battery is strong. When turning ignition to start you can hear a click under hood near the abs unit, and I checked the fuses under hood with no visible failures. Also observed that the central lock (vacuum system) no longer works. I have never experienced this.

Can the collective wisdom offer the most likely causes? I know this is a guess, I am interested in the major systems that impact starter (neutral safety switch, solenoid/relay for starter motor, etc?). Is there something like this which may be on the same circuit for central locking?

Is this a typical failure mode for the ignition switch?

thanks all!!

Tomer
94 E500 ~ 97K on the clock.

gerryvz
01-29-2013, 02:45 PM
Starter/solenoid or neutral safety switch (very likely cause) would be your main components.

Check fuses & battery chassis/ground connections, and electrical connections on the starter itself first.

Next try putting shifter in neutral and trying again. Wiggle the shifter and move it around thru the gears & back before trying again.

Cheers,
Gerry

tomer
01-29-2013, 04:03 PM
Thanks Honcho!! I did check fuses under hood, and I did try shifter in neutral. i also last night did check, try to twist and tightened battery terminals and the chassis ground cable in trunk area was tight also. I did not move shifter through the gears but hopefully putting shifter in neutral was enough.

I will update as I learn what happened.

Tomer

gerryvz
01-29-2013, 04:34 PM
Get your battery checked. is voltage at least 13V? Loosen & REMOVE cables from battery terminals; clean terminals & clamps with a wire brush. Just to make sure.

Another possibility to consider would be lower wiring harness, but first things first.

tomer
01-29-2013, 06:08 PM
Spoke to shop just now, and asked them to take a picture as I can't visualize what they say they found. They checked neutral safety switch and starter solenoid, and given central locks dont work and fasten seat belt light stays on and trunk light is out, etc they somehow traced to dash area and removed the instrument cluster and found a loose/slightly corroded/getting hot terminal #30 on the power bus. They said as soon as they removed cluster everything started working again, and they noticed this connection getting warm. Solution is to replace eyelit on wire and re-attach!! They said they will road test to be sure... They also noticed my lower wire harness has exposed wire (I knew this and will search and find part number and order soon!!).

They also say (off topic here) they use motul motor oil as this is factory approved by MBZ/BMW/Porsche and that north american mobil 1 formula is not actually MBZ approved as you need the Euro formula (ESP-M?).

I look forward to an iphone pic of the dash area in question, and will post.

Anyone have experience with terminal #30??

Tomer..

gsxr
01-29-2013, 07:38 PM
Can't help with terminal #30, sorry!

Mobil-1 "ESP" is "Emissions System Protection", it has reduced anti-wear additives for diesel vehicles with particulate traps. It's NOT an oil I would use in an M119 engine. That oil is designed for emissions reasons, not for optimum engine protection. Almost all the Mobil-1 formulas in North America are now a cheaper, Group-III base stock "fake" synthetic. I no longer use it for extended drains, but it's fine for normal drain intervals.

:grouphug:

gerryvz
01-29-2013, 07:53 PM
If they're talking about X30, they may well be right. The reason I say this is that as far as I remember, terminal 30 ("X30") is the power connector block for auxiliary accessories, and is located under the dash behind the parking brake pedal. It contains both switched and continuous hot lines, and some of these are connected to fuses A, B and C in the fuse box (see fuse panel card).

The ring terminal at pin 1 on the X30 connector is always hot, and it's connected to fuse "C" in the fuse panel, a 16A fuse IIRC. This circuit controls items like your door locking system, trunk light, courtesy lamps and alarm system -- most of which you said weren't or were intermittently working.

BUT....I think something else in the circuit is causing excess resistance (i.e. heat) in the circuit and thus, causing the under-dash X30 to get hot. Your lower wiring harness could be a cause for this since X30 has hot lines.

What concerns me most is that I have known several W124s that have caught fire in the dashboard area, and have been total losses. I have always suspected that X30 was the cause (i.e. short/resistance in the system causing things to heat up under the dash somewhere, eventually causing a fire) and your situation leads me to believe we may have a potential culprit for this.

Cheers,
Gerry

gerryvz
01-29-2013, 08:39 PM
Lower wiring harness information: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showwiki.php?title=Lower_Wiring_Harness

gerryvz
01-29-2013, 10:18 PM
I forgot about this post (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1031-Potential-Electrical-Fire-Issue).... thanks Derf.

Tomer, notice the first post in that thread from wpirie ... it references X30 and the identical circuit to what I mentioned, right down to the Fuse C. And notice that if the trunk wiring is shorting, the circuit all the way to X30 lead #1 is UNFUSED, and gets HOT, and potentially starts a fire IN THAT SAME LOCATION...

You may want to check the condition of your trunk wiring at the hinge. That means splitting open the wiring bundle and checking for wires with missing/cracked insulation. I recently did this on my 126 coupe to solve a wiring problem with the analogous wiring bundle on that car, as shown here (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1555-REPAIR-C126-trunk-light-wiring).

Did you happen to open your trunk right before you started the car? I'm wondering if you shorted the battery....

tomer
01-30-2013, 01:07 PM
Site Honcho,

You are like a mad dog on a bone!!! You sound like you are 100% correct about the X30, and yes I did open and close the trunk to put my work PC bag in the boot (or is that the bonnet :-) ) before I started the car...

I will dig into the trunk wiring, ironically I have a 1999 BMW 528i which I have confirmed has wires in the rubber hose section from the body to the trunk lid with exposed wires and flat out broken wires due to missing insulation. That is a known common BMW problem, and I need to get in there and do some soldering. Frankly (and I do often over think these things) I did not want to use standard Kragan Auto Parts/Orielly Auto Parts wire as I assume this is very cheap Chinese wire not worthy of inserting into a BMW or MBZ!! I am actually going to ask the shop if hey have any old MBZ wiring harness wire that I can harvest some wire from to repair...

In doing some searching I did find a pic of the X30 connector over on peachparts...I will upload and attach to this thread. The pic I found does not seem to match the physical description that my local shop gave - as local shop said there is a screw to remove and an eyelit to replace.

I think you are onto to something big here!!

Tomer

tomer
01-30-2013, 01:18 PM
OK lets try to add a pic. I found this over on peachparts of the X30 terminal from a W124 - year unknown. X30 terminal is found here behind the drivers side kick panel.

https://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2013/01/83.jpg

tomer
01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
Opps meant to add this pic first, which shows a better view of the black plastic housing for X30 being behind the kick panel.

https://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2013/01/84.jpg

Again, this does not match the physical description that the shop gave me, but logically what Gerry described is bang on!

Although My car is in the shop and will seriously lighten my wallet to get it out, I love this stuff!

gerryvz
01-30-2013, 05:52 PM
in the boot (or is that the bonnet :-) ) before I started the car...Bing can correct me on this, but...

The boot is what we Colonials call the "trunk"

The bonnet is what we Colonials call the "hood"

The hood is what we Colonials call the "soft top" on a convertible

Now ... I've got to go out to the garage and continue work on my SEC's prop-shaft..... have to lower the exhaust system all the way to the silencer.

tomer
01-30-2013, 06:25 PM
Saga Continues...

Shop said this morning (after car sat in their shop overnight) car started fine... They moved it within their shop and car restarted fine some time in morning when they moved it outside to clear space in their rather large shop... After car sat outside (windows up) for a couple hours they were taking it for a final road test, and, wait for it...NO START!! :-(

Difference now is the engine will crank but not start... They traced power to the coil but no ground at coil, which traces back to a relay which is grounded through the alarm module. They said they have been able to duplicate his "no ground on coil" a couple times and want to see it again a couple times before declaring the fault to be the alarm module.

I shall do some searching on this, and I have asked for the part number from the alarm module.

Does anyone know if the alarm module is specific to the E500E, or same for all W124s of the same year?

Trying to stay positive!

Tomer

gerryvz
01-30-2013, 06:50 PM
X30 pin 1 also has the alarm module on that circuit.

bing
01-31-2013, 02:25 PM
Bing can correct me on this, but...

The boot is what we Colonials call the "trunk"

The bonnet is what we Colonials call the "hood"

Correct !


The hood is what we Colonials call the "soft top" on a convertible

Err..Soft top is soft top, same in reference to convertibles. "The hood" is what we have learned from Colonials as the "neighbourhood!" :deniro:

Now back to topic. Here are a couple of links regarding the PITA factory alarm system that may help:

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?3009-Unexplained-alarm-activation&highlight=factory+alarm

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?3666-Factory-Alarm-Issue&highlight=factory+alarm

tomer
01-31-2013, 02:48 PM
Thanks all!!! This morning the tech at my local shop took the alarm module box apart hoping to find an obvious bad solder joint or something but no luck...

New module is ~ $330 so I am planning to bypass the module. I asked the shop owner the obvious question, at least to me... Rather than putting a wire jumper on the relay itself, if the alarm module provides a ground for the relay/coil, why not trace the wire from the relay to alarm module connector - and with the right MBZ post connector wire and an eyelit ground that pin in the footwell area using an existing screw.

Seems logical to me, then if I want to try to buy a used module I can easily install it and try it.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

thx
Tomer

DW SD
01-31-2013, 02:55 PM
Thanks all!!! This morning the tech at my local shop took the alarm module box apart hoping to find an obvious bad solder joint or something but no luck...

New module is ~ $330 so I am planning to bypass the module. I asked the shop owner the obvious question, at least to me... Rather than putting a wire jumper on the relay itself, if the alarm module provides a ground for the relay/coil, why not trace the wire from the relay to alarm module connector - and with the right MBZ post connector wire and an eyelit ground that pin in the footwell area using an existing screw.

Seems logical to me, then if I want to try to buy a used module I can easily install it and try it.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

thx
Tomer
Yes, I would try the same thing. Also, put a hidden switch inline with the new ground to set your own passive anti-theft device.

Doug

tomer
02-04-2013, 01:27 PM
I picked up the car this morning, and will advise if I have any further gremlins...

Bottom line appears to be the loose connection at terminal 30 (shop owner took a photo and I forgot to ask him to e-mail it to me but I will do so) then not sure if this was purely coincidental but the alarm module also failed and the shop bypassed the alarm module (they installed a jumper on the relay behind the instrument cluster thereby providing the coil a constant ground and the alarm module is now unplugged.

Thanks to all for the info along the way!

Tomer

tomer
04-23-2013, 12:13 PM
Sorry for lengthy delay... Here is a pic of my 94's terminal 30... This is right up and behind the brake pedal, or a little left of the brake pedal actually... I believe what you see on the very left is the parking brake cable/mechanism...

16693

Couple weeks after the repair I had another electrical gremlin (darn can't recall if it was seat belt flashing up on interior light or trunk light not working again...) so I dropped into the shop and owner replaced fuse #9 with a copper fuse... hmmmmm everything has been fine since and I swear the trunk light is brighter now... i know, this could be in my head, but it seems to be!!!

I saw it mentioned on this site, and after my experience I am an advocate of replacing all fuses with copper, and I will do so asap.

Tomer

samiam44
04-23-2013, 01:05 PM
Did you chk the trucks wiring yet? Should we all be checking x30. For tightness? I recently replaced the same fuse.

tomer
04-23-2013, 04:22 PM
No I have not checked the trunk wiring yet, it seemed very hard to access upon initial inspection (perhaps I was lazy...that happens...) as the bundle of wires goes into the trunk curved hinge...

If you are experiencing gremlins with systems attached to that power source, I would check it. I do not know what year switched from the plastic box/distribution panel design to what I have on my 94 which has several large wires on a post with nut attached. Said nut does not appear to be locking, and perhaps over time can come loose. Did you replace with a copper fuse?