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View Full Version : Factory (AMG) E60 conversion info and prices from the last century



Jimbo
04-03-2013, 05:57 AM
Hey guys, an aquiantance that works at AMG has been kind enough to dig this up for me/us...I've copied and posted his latest gem. WOW; LOL That's sure alot of dough , especially for back then !!

I'm hoping he comes thru with more info like this.




Hi Jimbo,

AMG offered over the years three different types of 6 Liter engines in the W 126.036 „500 E/E 500“ Body.

The first models were claimed 374 hp @ 5.250 rpm, later on the engine output was rated 381 hp @ 5.500 rpm. Between Sep 93 – Nov 94 the car W 124.039/M 119.974 6.0 was sold as “E 60”.
Fitted this 4 speed Automatic Gearbox and 2.65:1 final drive ratio these cars run up to 275 km/h (172mph) – with 2.24.1 ratio approx. 285 km/h (178mph).

The production numbers were even higher than “12” for each of the different series.

A few cars have been fitted with the 402 hp @ 5,500 rpm 6 Liter “Hybrid” engine {M 117/M 119}, these cars run up to over 300 km/h. The so called “hermaphrodite engine ” is one of “AMG’s” secrets……..

Was the conversion of a “500 E” W 124.036 in Oct 1991 priced at apprx. DM 80,000.--, the “hermaphrodite engine ” conversion was listed DM 50,000.—higher.

gsxr
04-03-2013, 10:14 AM
Interesting top speed info, it matches what I'd expect.

But... what the heck is he talking about with a hybrid M117 in a W124, and what was the advantage...? Interesting that the dates mentioned are circa 1991, possibly before development of a 6.0L M119 was completed.

:blink:

need2speed
04-03-2013, 10:16 AM
Indeed, nice to have the final drive ratios confirmed! Now I just need the horsepower :-0

Jimbo
04-03-2013, 11:13 AM
I'll see if he can elaborate with more on the the hybrid 117 motor. He did say he was prohibited from sending me photos of some things though.

Do you still have your E500 Dean ? (I hope so !)

I actually thought the 2.24s might get the car over 180mph...perhaps with the wind behind you it'll do it. It's not much of an improvement over the 2.65s IMO for just a few mphs.

gsxr
04-03-2013, 01:11 PM
The 2.24 might actually be too tall, i.e. end up below the power peak at V-max. I suspect 2.47 could be optimal for top speed in a 6.0L .036 chassis. I'm almost positive that a top speed of 180-185mph is possible in the .036 chassis with a strong 6.0L motor, proper gearing, and proper tires (note - fat wheels & tires do not help top speed.) Minor aero tweaks might be needed to get the last couple mph, i.e. removing the door mirrors, taping up seams, etc.

RENNtech was the only tuner who claimed >180mph from their top-tier E60 conversion. None of the tuners mention final drive ratio in their specs, so it's hard to say if the 172-176mph top speeds by Carlsson and Brabus were gearing limited:


AMG E60
displ. 5956 cc - 363 CI (+983 cc)
63.5 hp per liter
381 hp - 280 kW (+55 hp) @ 5500 rpm
580 Nm (+100 Nm) @ 3750 rpm
0 - 100 km 5.4 sec
250km/h (155mph) <-- Electronically limited

Carlsson E60
displ. 6207 cc - 379 CI (+1234 cc)
70.8 hp per liter
425 hp - 313 kW (+99 hp) @ 5600 rpm
620 Nm (+140 Nm) @ 3700 rpm
0 - 100 km 5.4 sec
276 km/h (172mph)

Brabus E60
displ. 5956 cc - 363 CI (+983 cc)
68.0 hp per liter
408 hp - 300 kW (+82 hp) @ 5600 rpm
604 Nm (+124 Nm) @ 3800 rpm
0 - 100 km 5.3 sec
282 km/h (176mph)

RENNtech E60
displ. 6000 cc - 366 CI (+1027 cc)
73.3 hp per liter
440 hp - 326 kW (+114 hp) @ 6000 rpm
608 Nm (+128 Nm) @ 4500 rpm
0 - 100 km 4.4 sec
290 km/h (181mph)

gerryvz
04-03-2013, 01:24 PM
I'm confused with regard to this super-secret "hermaphrodite" motor. :sad:

Didn't we have a thread about this? Isn't the M117/M119 hybrid motor just using the 5.6 crankshaft in an M119 block? Or something like a hybrid engine like what AMG Japan was doing?

Check out the thread on the AMG 45 book... (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?3057-New-book-on-AMG-history-released-in-July-2012)




I'm sticking with my "BS" claim until there are some good photos showing an M117 DOHC installed in a 124.036 chassis. I'd be curious to hear Jono's comments about if AMG ever released a ~402hp-rated version of any M117 engine.

Here's a GSXR post (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?3057-New-book-on-AMG-history-released-in-July-2012&p=29108&viewfull=1#post29108) on the ME-based 402HP (402PS?) motor ...

and more here (http://www.nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exotenforum/forum_entry.php?id=89120)?!?

and more?!?!?!?
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2013/04/4.jpg

2phast
04-03-2013, 01:55 PM
Not to go off topic, but in the Classic Mercedes magazine (issue 3) there is a article on the AMG Hammer and the author interviews Hartmut Feyhl. There is no mention of a hybrid motor at that time, but he does state "The first m119 version, the M119.960 came in the first 500sl R129 and had Bosch CIS KE injection. AMG bult the last few Hammers with that motor and also developed a boat motor based on it"

gerryvz
04-03-2013, 02:21 PM
You mean this article (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?3857-03-2012-Classic-Mercedes-Magazine-%28AMG-Hammer%29) ?

gsxr
04-03-2013, 02:26 PM
While I do not doubt the existence of the hybrid motor, I believe it was developed near the end of the M117 lifespan, and beginning of the M119 (i.e., M119.960 tall-deck block). I do not think the hybrid motor is in any way the "Holy Grail" of M119 powerplants, but rather more like an ancestor. It still would be interesting to get more info about the hybrid, i.e. exactly when it was developed, and why.

:grouphug:

2phast
04-03-2013, 02:36 PM
While I do not doubt the existence of the hybrid motor, I believe it was developed near the end of the M117 lifespan, and beginning of the M119 (i.e., M119.960 tall-deck block). I do not think the hybrid motor is in any way the "Holy Grail" of M119 powerplants, but rather more like an ancestor. It still would be interesting to get more info about the hybrid, i.e. exactly when it was developed, and why.

:grouphug:

I would of assumed Hartmut would of known something about it.

gsxr
04-03-2013, 02:51 PM
I would of assumed Hartmut would of known something about it.
Yup - he might. However I think Hartmut left AMG several years before the development of the hybrid... right? Didn't he found RENNtech in FL in the mid/late 1980's?

:hornets:

Jimbo
04-03-2013, 03:13 PM
Well...if ever there was a 'Holy Grail' motor from those times...wouldn't it be the Sauber twin turboed race engine?

I'll ask my guy for pictures for proof...but don't count on it. It took about 3 tries in as many months to get him to get back to me on the E60 info....and this is all I got. I have a feeling he has all the info, just not willing or allowed to give it all up.

2phast
04-03-2013, 03:25 PM
Yup - he might. However I think Hartmut left AMG several years before the development of the hybrid... right? Didn't he found RENNtech in FL in the mid/late 1980's?

:hornets:

Renntech founded in 1989. It's the M119 time frame and since the 500E was in development in 1990. The "hybrid" m117/m119 motor surely had been done around that time frame.

Stevester 500E
04-03-2013, 09:00 PM
Has anyone priced out what a Renntech 6.0 conversion cost these days? Kinda makes me upset when I see all these american motor guys create high HP LS1, LS2 and LS3 engines at affordable prices. And when the talk about increasing HP in the 5ooe's, the answers seems to be, "Hard to someone who knows how to treat aluminum cylinder bores.", or simply, "It cost an arm and a leg !"

Any other options other than Renntech?

gsxr
04-03-2013, 09:15 PM
You can buy the parts and do it yourself... sort of... but the cost of parts is the problem. Or, you need to put time into R&D and have stuff custom made to get the cost down. It's roughly $10-$15k in parts, plus machine work, plus labor. Camshafts alone are like $5k... pistons/pins are nearly $1k each I think... head gaskets are $2k/pair... etc. With custom stuff you could maybe get the cost under $10k, but if there's not a machine shop local that does Alusil etching, that's another challenge.

There are a couple threads on the "can we build a 6.0L M119?" question, poke around with the search function a bit.

:mushroom:

alexis
04-04-2013, 04:10 AM
Hi,
I am very suspicious about the RENNtech figures for the 6.0.
How is it possible to gain almost 1 second at the 0-100 km/h and a higher max. speed with such a little dfference in HP and torque compared to the other three manufacturers ?
Alex

quicksilver500
04-04-2013, 06:08 AM
They made 117 block with 119 heads for some of the late 80's early 90's conversions. There was a wide body SEC for sale at Garage Current some time ago with one of these motors.

-Mike

gsxr
04-04-2013, 08:53 AM
Hi,
I am very suspicious about the RENNtech figures for the 6.0.
How is it possible to gain almost 1 second at the 0-100 km/h and a higher max. speed with such a little dfference in HP and torque compared to the other three manufacturers ?
Alex
I agree. Their numbers tend to be optimistic, IMO, including the claimed power rating. I've never seen any RENNtech 6.0L motor dyno at more than approx 335-340hp to the wheels (even the "Stage 3" setup with tubular headers), which would be 410-415hp at the crank, not 440hp.

Another possibility is that the 4.4 second time was at a dragstrip with slicks or drag radials (no wheelspin), with perfect conditions, optional limited-slip, near empty tank of fuel, etc... i.e., "best case" numbers. The other mfr's times of 5.3-5.4 seconds are more real-world, probably with street tires, etc.

Also keep in mind that RENNtech did each build per customer's orders, so each of their engines can be different, with different power output, and each car had different mods.

:hornets:

quicksilver500
04-04-2013, 05:11 PM
I think those are ME (1997/1998 E60) numbers, not LH.

gsxr
04-04-2013, 05:18 PM
I think those are ME (1997/1998 E60) numbers, not LH.
That is a definite possibility. The W210 E60 weighs a couple hundred pounds less and has lower gearing thanks to the 5-speed tranny. Wish I could remember where I sourced that data...

:scratchchin:

Stevester 500E
04-04-2013, 09:04 PM
So is it a sin to put a GM LS3 in a 500e? I mean, the purist would say then it aint a Mercedes . . . . And they are right. I like my 500e because of the stance, the wide fenders, etc. and the motor too. But it needs a more powerful motor. Heck, some people are modifying their Infinity Q45's to go faster than 500e's. That's a shame . . . I think the 500e's are losing the "Wolf in Sheeps clothing" status, no? Can we do anything to keep that status?

KarlC
04-04-2013, 09:39 PM
So is it a sin to put a GM LS3 in a 500e? I mean, the purist would say then it aint a Mercedes . . . . And they are right. I like my 500e because of the stance, the wide fenders, etc. and the motor too. But it needs a more powerful motor. Heck, some people are modifying their Infinity Q45's to go faster than 500e's. That's a shame . . . I think the 500e's are losing the "Wolf in Sheeps clothing" status, no? Can we do anything to keep that status?

Here you go this should be right up your ally, a 1984 Mercedes 190E with 92 Ford 5.0 HO V8 Engine .....

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/3720738672.html

90E'84 --V8 5.0 HO
1984 Mercedes 190E with 92 Ford 5.0 HO V8 Engine Swap wirh low mileage on the motor 20K.This car has alot of power under the hood and had a quick respond on the pedal more fun to drive then the 16V.
Transmission:
Ford 4 speed manual
Differential & Halfshafts:
Larger differential and halfshafts from a 1987/88 300E with 3.07 LSD ratio
Brakes:
Bigger rotors and calipers from a 1987/88 300E
Suspension:
New front tires, 300E lowering springs, shocks are 500E in front and 300E in back. 300E front sway bar (stock rear sway bar)
Cooling:
Custom 3 row radiator with low profile mechanical fan and stock electric fan
Exhaust:
New 2 Ā½ā€¯ catback exhaust
Wheels:
SLK wheels 16x8/16x7.5
Exterior :
add on side body molding ,16v front bumper,newer 89-up rear bumper and bosch euro light
Work Remaining:

Work needed to be smog legal in California: ( CA plate with non-op )
(has all smog equipment needed except the following)
1.Install catalytic converter (I have it, will be included in the sale)
2.Buy and install stock ford airbox
3.Buy and install fitting that connects valve cover breather to intake
4.Install a check engine light in the dash and wire it to the ecu in the engine compartment

Car was in running condition.it was storage all this time,love to keeped the car and finished like the way I wanned to be, by adding couple more stuff to the car . Asking price $ 4K Please Text only for info (909) 660-3721

emerydc8
04-04-2013, 09:50 PM
Maybe this blown, Chevy L98 350 TPI would fit.

Jimbo
04-05-2013, 07:48 AM
So is it a sin to put a GM LS3 in a 500e? I mean, the purist would say then it aint a Mercedes . . . . And they are right. I like my 500e because of the stance, the wide fenders, etc. and the motor too. But it needs a more powerful motor. Heck, some people are modifying their Infinity Q45's to go faster than 500e's. That's a shame . . . I think the 500e's are losing the "Wolf in Sheeps clothing" status, no? Can we do anything to keep that status?

LOL, the heck with what others think...if you can shove in a more powerful motor in it, then go for it.

Been toying with that idea myself (and moreso to convince a mechanic to do it for me) as there are plenty of newer crashed AMG cars that I'm sure would love to donate their low mile, V8 motors , drivetrain and all the electronics to an old and tired high mileage basket case 500E. But then, I suddenly wake up to (my) reality with an awful rude slap right in the mug. 8-)

Yep, the ole .036 isn't such a banshee in todays wild kingdom....quite respectable, don't get me wrong, but a lot has happened to performance cars in the last 20 years. I had to retire mine from track events...it just doesn't have enough of the right stuff to keep up anymore.

Jimbo
04-05-2013, 07:52 AM
Maybe this blown, Chevy L98 350 TPI would fit.

Why not? They get those motors to fit in a ton of other cars.

gsxr
04-05-2013, 10:49 AM
Save yourself the hassle and just get a NOS kit for the 500E. Reportedly you can go to at +150hp safely (est 475hp at the crank) with upgraded fuel pumps. That should be plenty to embarrass the Q45's.

:nos:

Stevester 500E
09-25-2014, 10:47 PM
Wow, Q45, been a while since someone mentioned the competition.
Q45, another wolf in sheep's clothing, but aesthetically not appealing.
Would love to embarrass a Q45, however the Q45 owner I know has increased his horsepower and converted it to a manual transmission.. . . and probably running on juice.

Stevester 500E
09-25-2014, 10:56 PM
Yes, Jimbo they certainly do. I took in one of my w124 coupes to get a quote from an experienced turn-key shop.
BMW318IS with an LS1. They took quick measurements and said there is "plenty" of room. There only comment was that they might have to be creative around the steering gear box-but said it was no big deal.

Guys drop LS motors into their Infinity G35 coupes.

So it is doable in a w124 engine bay, for sure. You can get an LS3 with a manual tranny, harness, ecu, etc for about $17-20K with sub 35K miles. That is not cheap, but it is a realistic option.

Why not? They get those motors to fit in a ton of other cars.

M104-AMG
09-26-2014, 12:08 PM
Converse Engineering converted Volvo's (esp. wagons) to Ford powered V8's. They also did a Ford V8 into a W124 wagon, and were working on a LSx conversion for a W124 wagon. About 2003, I was contemplating an LSx or Ford 302 V8 into the W124 wagon, at approx. $13-16K.

I need to find those pics.

:-) neil

http://jalopnik.com/5540957/the-ford-powered-volvo-wagon-paul-newman-built

gerryvz
09-26-2014, 01:31 PM
Converse Engineering converted Volvo's (esp. wagons) to Ford powered V8's. They also did a Ford V8 into a W124 wagon, and were working on a LSx conversion for a W124 wagon. About 2003, I was contemplating an LSx or Ford 302 V8 into the W124 wagon, at approx. $13-16K.

I need to find those pics.

:-) neil

http://jalopnik.com/5540957/the-ford-powered-volvo-wagon-paul-newman-builtDoes FCP make kits for these Ford-converted Volvos?

clarkz71
09-26-2014, 03:18 PM
They must, Volvo people there, right ??

Stevester 500E
09-30-2014, 08:38 PM
Never run on NOS, how long does that bottle of steroids last anyhow?

Save yourself the hassle and just get a NOS kit for the 500E. Reportedly you can go to at +150hp safely (est 475hp at the crank) with upgraded fuel pumps. That should be plenty to embarrass the Q45's.

:nos:

samiam44
09-30-2014, 08:59 PM
It's a shame camshaft selection is so limited, electonics, intake design are old.

I think a supercharged is the way to go. 500hp crank would be the upper bboy d for streetability.

M

Stevester 500E
10-12-2014, 08:10 PM
Yes, super charged is the way to go, and I would choose the ZL1 LSA 6.2.

Maui
10-12-2014, 10:02 PM
Converse Engineering converted Volvo's (esp. wagons) to Ford powered V8's. They also did a Ford V8 into a W124 wagon, and were working on a LSx conversion for a W124 wagon. About 2003, I was contemplating an LSx or Ford 302 V8 into the W124 wagon, at approx. $13-16K.

I need to find those pics.

:-) neil

http://jalopnik.com/5540957/the-ford-powered-volvo-wagon-paul-newman-built


If there was a LSx conversion kit for the wagon I would stand in line all night to get one.