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gerryvz
08-27-2014, 06:22 AM
MODERATOR'S NOTE: This thread was spawned from another thread welcoming a new member to the forum.
That thread is located here (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6512).



Welcome to the forum. All of your questions have been extremely well covered on this forum, so some searching would be a good idea so that people aren't repeating themselves as to ownership and buying experience, key repairs, and so forth. It's been covered here ad nauseum.

Porsche was not responsible for the "V8 conversion." All they actually did was some minor chassis engineering and fine-tuning in the development phase, some moderate modification & reinforcement of the chassis for the 500E powertrain, and the actual assembly of the cars. Porsche didn't actually do any production of the components used on the 500E. The 500E is 100% a Mercedes-Benz, that happened to be screwed together by Porsche.

MB made another related car, the little-brother 400E, that used a smaller-displacement version of the same engine used in the 500E, that they produced 100% in house at/by Mercedes-Benz in Germany, without any help from Porsche.

2phast
08-27-2014, 06:14 PM
Porsche didn't actually do any production of the components used on the 500E. The 500E is 100% a Mercedes-Benz, that happened to be screwed together by Porsche.

FWIW, according to Dr. Wolfgang Peter in a 1991 interview "All new parts for this model (500E) were designed by Porsche". Also, many early 500e parts carry Porsche labels and/or part numbers associated with Porsche AG (see picture). Furthermore, (according to Dr. Peter again) "Mercedes farmed out most of the 500e's engineering, chassis design and tuning to Porsche".

gerryvz
08-27-2014, 06:30 PM
The label you show is an exact copy of the label that is found in pedestrian 124s, except that pedestrian 124s say "Mercedes-Benz" instead of "Porsche AG". It was provided by an outside supplier (an MB parts supplier) and the Porsche AG on the label only indicates that it was shipped to Porsche for installation at their factory. It was not a Porsche-manufactured part; the manufacturer's logo is clearly shown on the label.

Furthermore, it is very very easy to misrepresent and/or over-assume the role that Porsche played, and this connection has been "played up" and "hyped" quite a bit over the years. The 500E was designed and engineered by MB, **is** an MB, and SOME tuning and modest engineering was done by Porsche. To say that "most of the engineering of the 500E was done by Porsche" would discount the fact that a 500E is still in most ways nearly identical to a regularl 124 in terms of structure, design and engineering.

Also to say "all new parts for this model were designed by Porsche" would be an over-statement. Does that mean that Porsche designed all 036-specific parts? I'd strongly say NO. Remember that the .036 is largely a parts-bin car, taking suspension largely from the W129 and drivetrain largely from the 129 and 140 which it was designed for. Sure Porsche tuned and optimized it along the way, and did some chassis engineering & development to make it all work and add a little magic, but I think it's important not to overplay the connection.

I'm a big booster of the Porsche connection but I also don't let it go to my head (i.e. license plate frames, Porsche crests mounted on the car, interior "engineered by Porsche" stickers, etc.). Honestly, very few people know -- or care -- about the connection, and IMHO folks who proudly wear Porsche badges on their .036 look a bit foolish to the general public. Why not understate (as the .036 itself does) rather than overstate?

texas993
08-27-2014, 07:22 PM
Gerry, Gerry, Gerry. Please don't rain on the Porsche party! Porsche is cool!

i am going to get those logos on my 500E!

Glen
08-27-2014, 07:38 PM
Porsche put enough effort into the project to create a "Type 2758" model that even MB recognizes.

Trae
08-27-2014, 07:56 PM
Why not understate (as the .036 itself does) rather than overstate?

Because, secretly, we all want Patrick's Porsche. . .:jono:

Klink
08-27-2014, 07:57 PM
Why not understate (as the .036 itself does) rather than overstate?

Because, secretly, we all want Patrick's Porsche. . .:jono:

That's a secret?

:klink:

2phast
08-27-2014, 08:11 PM
The label you show is an exact copy of the label that is found in pedestrian 124s, except that pedestrian 124s say "Mercedes-Benz" instead of "Porsche AG". It was provided by an outside supplier (an MB parts supplier) and the Porsche AG on the label only indicates that it was shipped to Porsche for installation at their factory. It was not a Porsche-manufactured part; the manufacturer's logo is clearly shown on the label.

Furthermore, it is very very easy to misrepresent and/or over-assume the role that Porsche played, and this connection has been "played up" and "hyped" quite a bit over the years. The 500E was designed and engineered by MB, **is** an MB, and SOME tuning and modest engineering was done by Porsche. To say that "most of the engineering of the 500E was done by Porsche" would discount the fact that a 500E is still in most ways nearly identical to a regularl 124 in terms of structure, design and engineering.

Also to say "all new parts for this model were designed by Porsche" would be an over-statement. Does that mean that Porsche designed all 036-specific parts? I'd strongly say NO. Remember that the .036 is largely a parts-bin car, taking suspension largely from the W129 and drivetrain largely from the 129 and 140 which it was designed for. Sure Porsche tuned and optimized it along the way, and did some chassis engineering & development to make it all work and add a little magic, but I think it's important not to overplay the connection.

I'm a big booster of the Porsche connection but I also don't let it go to my head (i.e. license plate frames, Porsche crests mounted on the car, interior "engineered by Porsche" stickers, etc.). Honestly, very few people know -- or care -- about the connection, and IMHO folks who proudly wear Porsche badges on their .036 look a bit foolish to the general public. Why not understate (as the .036 itself does) rather than overstate?

Hmm, so you think Dr. Wolfgang Peter (head of Mercedes passenger car development) is making an overstatement and "over assuming" Porsche's role then? Read the article for yourself.

gerryvz
08-27-2014, 08:31 PM
There is absolutely no doubt that Porsche put significant effort into the project. It started in late 1989/early 1990, and ended in late 1995. That's not insignificant, and indicative of major commitment (and probably hundreds of millions of Deutschmarks that changed hands between the companies).


Porsche put enough effort into the project to create a "Type 2758" model that even MB recognizes.Where and how does MB recognize a Porsche Type number? The only type number that MB recognizes has six digits (124.036), not four.

I've never seen any reference to the Porsche project Type number in any Mercedes-Benz document, including the many that I've scoured at the factory archives in Unterturkheim over the years. I (and everybody else here) only learned that there WAS a "Type 2758" when I happened to see it on the display sign next to the E500 Limited model at the Porsche Museum in Zuffenhausen a few years back.

That said, I would bet anyone here $100 that EVERY contract engineering project that Porsche did, during its "down" years in the 1990s, had a project or "Type" number, including the Audi RS2. That would be standard operating procedure.

gerryvz
08-27-2014, 08:33 PM
Hmm, so you think Dr. Wolfgang Peter (head of Mercedes passenger car development) is making an overstatement and "over assuming" Porsche's role then? Read the article for yourself.Think about the statement, literally, for a second. Is it 100% logical?

To the extent that it's an "absolute" statement, yes I do think it's an overstatement. I absolutely do not believe that every single .036-specific part was designed by Porsche. I believe that many MB parts were adapted by Porsche for .036 duty (very likely with the approval and active assistance of MB), and sure, some were designed specifically for the application as well, including structural reinforcement parts, the deeper rear spare-wheel tub, and so forth.

It would be very interesting to find out whether it was MB, or Porsche, who designed .036-specific body parts like the flared wheel wells, and the front air dam, etc. My guess is MB, because they would have likely done the wind tunnel testing and so forth.

gerryvz
08-27-2014, 08:52 PM
Gerry, Gerry, Gerry. Please don't rain on the Porsche party! Porsche is cool!

i am going to get those logos on my 500E!While you're at it, why don't you throw a RUF logo on your .036 for good measure. Because as every Porsche-badged .036 owner on this forum knows, Porsche logos on the .036 exponentially increase your attractiveness to the opposite sex. Can't imagine what a RUF logo would do for this..... *shudder*

Klink
08-27-2014, 09:48 PM
While you're at it, why don't you throw a RUF logo on your .036 for good measure. Because as every Porsche-badged .036 owner on this forum knows, Porsche logos on the .036 exponentially increase your attractiveness to the opposite sex. Can't imagine what a RUF logo would do for this..... *shudder*

I've said it here before, Honch. Some like it RUF :hitit:

Klink
08-27-2014, 11:12 PM
The whole Porsche thing...

Here's some freely associated thoughts for your consideration:

I'm kind of with Honch on the general concept that the Porsche thing can be easily over played. That's not to say it isn't something to enjoy.

To say that "All new parts were made" probably meant just that, as in some "all new parts were made". It's not the same as saying that Porsche made all of the new parts, which seems to be how many have interpreted that sentence over the years.

Word on the street is that pretty much every vehicle project undertaken by Porsche is, or at least was a "Type" something, and that apparently included everything from Ladas to lawnmowers. This company had always done huge business as a consultancy / development partner for many companies.

What made this link up kind of special? EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT IT! Think about that. Each of these famously egotistical companies was OK with everyone knowing about it! I found that amazing back then and I still do that each company had enough respect for the other that they considered this "open secret" to be good press for themselves.


What pisses me off when I perceive it as overplayed is this: overplaying it seems to imply that this Porsche connection somehow bathed humble little old Mercedes in all this radiant reflected glory, and that is pure buttofouco. If there is any car maker in this world that has higher brand equity / prestige / respect / recognition than Porsche it was and likely still is Mercedes-Benz! I mean puhleeeez already! MB is arguably the most respected and recognized name in automobiles in the world, everywhere in the world. Even the exotics do not seriously rival it. They bring smiles and warm hearts as exquisite toys, but when the owners of these things want a CAR, even they look to Mercedes-Benz to supply it.

Don't tell me about Rolls, BMW, etc. Imagine any of these other brand names not being diminished by it's application to trucks and tractors! MB's brand prestige is so high, it is somehow enhanced by such commerciality. It is enhanced by general use as taxi cabs! It even seems to be enhanced when they go "down market"! Hell, I'll say that the Maybach would have done fine even in the face of this depression if those entrusted with the brand had not been so blinkered STUPID as to NOT use the most revered name in automobiles!
:wtf: were those guys thinking?

Please don't misunderstand, I intend not the slightest disrespect towards Porsche or It's admirers, among whom I also count myself. I just wanted to get this relative brand prestige thing straight. The name Porsche is revered by Porsche fanatics the world over. The name Mercedes-Benz is generally revered by people the world over.

Sum up: the E5E Porsche connection, especially since it's Rössle Bau? I love and revel in it too, and I've been happied up numerous times when an older Porsche driver saw one of my E5Es and nodded or commented on it. But don't get ahead of yourselves...

:klink:

KarlC
08-28-2014, 07:39 AM
I always liked this thread.....

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3332&highlight=Porsche

.

need2speed
08-28-2014, 08:30 AM
Hmm, so you think Dr. Wolfgang Peter (head of Mercedes passenger car development) is making an overstatement and "over assuming" Porsche's role then? Read the article for yourself.

Thanks for this article, I had not read it before. I like the "witch kitchen" reference, remedied by their purchase of AMG. Also these details were reassuring; "without the governor and with the stock 2.82:1 gearing, MBAG engineers say the 500E will top 165 mph, and with a slightly difference ratio 175 mph is possible."

bing
08-28-2014, 10:08 AM
Reading that article by MBCA - shame US models did not get Infrared remote locking key as expected.

maw1124
08-28-2014, 02:37 PM
For me, overstatement is generally to be avoided, so I agree with that sentiment.

But some things are hard to overstate, and to me that "each of these famously egotistical companies" actually collaborated on a world beater back in the day is kinda one of those things.

In any event, the car clearly "goes like a Benz and handles like a Porsche" -- that's what makes it so special to me. It doesn't drive like anything else in the MB fold from the era, as a quick drive in a R129 Silver Arrow made clear to me. And do any other W124 cars have this many S Class components? I honestly don't know.

I wanted a W124 because it was widely considered one of (if not the) best Mercedes chassis ever. That's saying something. I wanted THIS W124, because of the Porsche touch -- that lowered, widened, design engineered, and hand built quality thing that Porsche is famous for. They come apart and go back together like Legos -- it's a wonderful thing.

I am surely guilty of what GVZ condemns here, with a plate that reads MB-PORSH. Of course, most people don't get it, and that's the point. Some who get it may frown upon it, and I don't shivagit.

Rik, thanks for that article in PDG format. I have a print one that came with my car from the previous owner's file. But I'm happy to have it digitally as well.

Cheers, Gents.

maw

Efraim
08-28-2014, 02:41 PM
Hi,

You are discussing how much Porsche engineer was envolved when developing 124.036. Let me tell my view.

One can get the hint by looking the document 500E_Intro_to_service (http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/W124/500E_Intro_to_Service%28English%29.pdf). I see that the role of Porsche is maximum the delta between the document compared to 'normal' W124 service manual plus taking into account that most of the 'special' parts of .036 were normal MB parts used by other models like w129. I don't know how much that did R&D when modifying the w124 to w124.036.work thay did need a lot help from MB side since only MB guys knew the parts that could be used. Perhaps their role was biggest when developing totally new parts, but I see that amount of 100% .036 unique parts is relatively small. So their role must have been minor in development phase.

Sure, not to forget that Porsche assembled the car with their way of working, standards and quality. ...and the result turned to be legend. :-)

sheward
08-28-2014, 03:28 PM
I am surely guilty of what GVZ condemns here, with a plate that reads MB-PORSH. Of course, most people don't get it, and that's the point. Some who get it may frown upon it, and I don't shivagit.



I have had a Porsche crest on every vehicle I've owned since the days when it was all I owned. Thru the years it has prompted other car enthusiasts to begin a conversation and I've made many new friends as a result.

drew

Klink
08-28-2014, 03:47 PM
For me, overstatement is generally to be avoided, so I agree with that sentiment.

But some things are hard to overstate, and to me that "each of these famously egotistical companies" actually collaborated on a world beater back in the day is kinda one of those things.

In any event, the car clearly "goes like a Benz and handles like a Porsche" -- that's what makes it so special to me. It doesn't drive like anything else in the MB fold from the era, as a quick drive in a R129 Silver Arrow made clear to me. And do any other W124 cars have this many S Class components? I honestly don't know.

I wanted a W124 because it was widely considered one of (if not the) best Mercedes chassis ever. That's saying something. I wanted THIS W124, because of the Porsche touch -- that lowered, widened, design engineered, and hand built quality thing that Porsche is famous for. They come apart and go back together like Legos -- it's a wonderful thing.

I am surely guilty of what GVZ condemns here, with a plate that reads MB-PORSH. Of course, most people don't get it, and that's the point. Some who get it may frown upon it, and I don't shivagit.

Rik, thanks for that article in PDG format. I have a print one that came with my car from the previous owner's file. But I'm happy to have it digitally as well.

Cheers, Gents.

maw


I have had a Porsche crest on every vehicle I've owned since the days when it was all I owned. Thru the years it has prompted other car enthusiasts to begin a conversation and I've made many new friends as a result.

drew

I'm fine with it. Inside baseball people get it. Others just think you are bragging that you have a Porsche too, which is OK especially if you do. Porsche people that don't get it just think that you wish you had a Porsche. But as I've said here several times, by a huge majority the greatest number of casual encounters I've had with strangers that knew what it was on sight were older 911 drivers. A shocking number of those occurred at gas pumps, how appropriately. That "older", by the way could be by means of either the car, the driver, or both!

:oldster:
:klink:

clarkz71
08-28-2014, 04:00 PM
This should be interesting.

I do know there isn't one part from a 036 that can't be bolted on or fit to an 034

All I need for the euro oil cooler is the lower radiator support.

Glen
08-28-2014, 04:51 PM
This should be interesting.

I do know there isn't one part from a 036 that can't be bolted on or fit to an 034

All I need for the euro oil cooler is the lower radiator support.


SLS nitrogen sphere?

clarkz71
08-28-2014, 05:07 PM
Entire SLS rear suspension, considering SLS is optional on euro 034 cars, as is ASR here.

I could take a complete 500E, swap everything over to a 034, leaving off the sheet metal for stealth
and really have fun with 036 owners on a track day.

300E badge to really rub it in...........

Glen
08-28-2014, 05:10 PM
Entire SLS rear suspension, considering SLS is optional on euro 034 cars, as is ASR here.

I could take a complete 500E, swap everything over to a 034, leaving off the sheet metal for stealth
and really have fun with 036 owners on a track day.

I didn't realize an .034 had the space in the spare tire well to mount the spheres. Aren't the trunk floors different between the .034 and .036? I mean, assuming the .034 didn't come from the factory with SLS?

Klink
08-28-2014, 05:12 PM
SLS nitrogen sphere?

Believe it or not, it actually was available in the USA in the 032, 034, and 066. It was in the USA dealer ordering guides (DOGs they were called when they were paper pamphlets) and it was reasonably priced. I it seems that almost nobody ever ordered it. I have seen exactly one USA 066 with it...

clarkz71
08-28-2014, 05:19 PM
I mean, assuming the .034 didn't come from the factory with SLS?

Definitely a factory option on the 034, it's in the EPC

I think Dave has seen one

Glen
08-28-2014, 05:21 PM
Definitely a factory option on the 034, it's in the EPC

I think Dave has seen one

So, just so I'm clear. If an .034 didn't come from the factory with SLS, an .036 nitrogen sphere WILL NOT BOLT-IN to an .034, correct?

clarkz71
08-28-2014, 05:28 PM
You would need to install the mounting studs or brackets, what ever the SLS cars use

Being it is an option, it can be installed. Especially with an 036 parts car to pilfer parts from.

Which is what I said in my first post regarding using all the parts from a 036 on a 034


And with a mig welder and some material, you can mount the gas cells wherever you want

Just make up some new lines to reach

Klink
08-28-2014, 05:29 PM
So, just so I'm clear. If an .034 didn't come from the factory with SLS, an .036 nitrogen sphere WILL NOT BOLT-IN to an .034, correct?

Just about, if not every 124 was available in the ECE with SLS. Obviously there were a number of cars it was standard on, like wagons, limos, 036s. I am looking right now to see where the spheres went into an 034. Clark can look, I'll bet the sphere cut points are there in the spare well, if they aren't, then they went underneath it. I can say that on an 066, they are in the trunk, just like an 036.

Klink
08-28-2014, 05:35 PM
You would need to install the mounting studs or brackets, what ever the SLS cars use

Being it is an option, it can be installed. Especially with an 036 parts car to pilfer parts from.

Which is what I said in my first post regarding using all the parts from a 036 on a 034


And with a mig welder and some material, you can mount the gas cells wherever you want

Just make up some new lines to reach


So, just so I'm clear. If an .034 didn't come from the factory with SLS, an .036 nitrogen sphere WILL NOT BOLT-IN to an .034, correct?


Definitely a factory option on the 034, it's in the EPC

I think Dave has seen one


Just about, if not every 124 was available in the ECE with SLS. Obviously there were a number of cars it was standard on, like wagons, limos, 036s. I am looking right now to see where the spheres went into an 034. Clark can look, I'll bet the sphere cut points are there in the spare well, if they aren't, then they went underneath it. I can say that on an 066, they are in the trunk, just like an 036.

Just looked it up in EPC and WIS. In an 034, they went in the forward spare well, just like in a 036. All related parts are shown and are applicable also to USA cars with the option.

Glen
08-28-2014, 05:37 PM
Just looked it up in EPC and WIS. In an 034, they went in the forward spare well, just like in a 036. All related parts are shown and are applicable also to USA cars with the option.

Ah, that's good to know. I was under the impression that the larger spare tire well was designed specifically to house the spheres as well as the wider wheels/tires. Thanks for clarifying.

clarkz71
08-28-2014, 05:38 PM
Thanks Klink, saved me some time.

gerryvz
08-28-2014, 05:41 PM
Hmm, so you think Dr. Wolfgang Peter (head of Mercedes passenger car development) is making an overstatement and "over assuming" Porsche's role then? Read the article for yourself.This same article is also posted in our E500E articles forum, here (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=879).

Klink
08-28-2014, 05:48 PM
Thanks Klink, saved me some time.

No problem. I was in front of the computer compiling a parts list for an estimate. Just a couple of extra clicks. I knew you'd be on this topic like a melanoma!

:jono:

M104-AMG
08-29-2014, 10:26 AM
When I think of "Porsche designed", I'm thinking that Porsche was given access to the design-specs, and given authority to make changes to accommodate the building of the 036; and it was still DB's vendors who manufactured the part, with the revised specifications.

:-) neil

Ascension
08-29-2014, 10:57 AM
Gerry, Gerry, Gerry. Please don't rain on the Porsche party! Porsche is cool!

i am going to get those logos on my 500E!


Yep they are and we Volvo guys wear our Porsche connection with Pride. You see Volvo contracted the Porsche engineers to totally design the current line of Volvo White Block 5's and 6's. Might be why they are so stout in both reliability and horsepower!
In other words my Volvo V-90 has more of a truly Porsche designed pedigree than you guys E-500's do :triumphant: LOL!
In seriousness in that era Porsche was a struggling company and farming out their engineering and production skills to both Mercedes and Volvo for some $ likely saved the company!

Taxi Driver
08-29-2014, 10:59 AM
Porsche by that time was not what it is today, by then MB easily could have bought into Porsche, like with AMG and now with Aston Martin.
Wonder how things would have been with a constellation like that, and where would VW been placed on the map, IF?

Maybe MB did not see any potential in the sporty VW, I don't know?

The credit I think should go to; 1. AMG for showing it was possible to build such a Monster. 2. BMW, yes, for forcing MB to make an answer
to the M5. 3. Porsche for helping MB to produce such numbers of 036'es. Did I forget anyone? Roger

Ascension
08-29-2014, 11:10 AM
Porsche by that time was not what it is today, by then MB easily could have bought into Porsche, like with AMG and now with Aston Martin.
Wonder how things would have been with a constellation like that, and where would VW been placed on the map, IF?

Maybe MB did not see any potential in the sporty VW, I don't know?

The credit I think should go to; 1. AMG for showing it was possible to build such a Monster. 2. BMW, yes, for forcing MB to make an answer
to the M5. 3. Porsche for helping MB to produce such numbers of 036'es. Did I forget anyone? Roger

The really scary scenario would have been Chrysler or FORD winding up with Porsche! Remember that this is getting into the era where some real maneuvering was ongoing in the industry and close to the time that Daimler merged with Chrysler and Ford bought Volvo with both brands as a result taking big slides in quality for a while.
Now that Greeley owns Volvo in particular it is another WORLD there. Watch Volvo in the next 5 years as right now they are killing everybody in the Euro V8 super car series with the Polestar cars and there are some real rumblings that both MB and BMW may need to duck with the street cars if some at Volvo get their way. In particular when the new Volvo V8 makes it to the street>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ3jXFJMVrc
F

400Eric
08-29-2014, 11:23 AM
Yep they are and we Volvo guys wear our Porsche connection with Pride. You see Volvo contracted the Porsche engineers to totally design the current line of Volvo White Block 5's and 6's. Might be why they are so stout in both reliability and horsepower!
In other words my Volvo V-90 has more of a truly Porsche designed pedigree than you guys E-500's do :triumphant: LOL!
In seriousness in that era Porsche was a struggling company and farming out their engineering and production skills to both Mercedes and Volvo for some $ likely saved the company!

Don't forget the 4 cylinder! There are some stout first generation S40s running stout E/Ts with just a 4 cyl version of the Whiteblock.

I have mentioned the Porsche/Whiteblock connection on this site a few times, recently and in the past, but as with your post above, it seems as if no one sees it. It's as if no one here wants to acknowledge it. It's OK though, no biggie. Good thing that Volvo guys aren't too sensitive.

Klink
08-29-2014, 11:33 AM
Porsche by that time was not what it is today, by then MB easily could have bought into Porsche, like with AMG and now with Aston Martin.
Wonder how things would have been with a constellation like that, and where would VW been placed on the map, IF?

Maybe MB did not see any potential in the sporty VW, I don't know?

The credit I think should go to; 1. AMG for showing it was possible to build such a Monster. 2. BMW, yes, for forcing MB to make an answer
to the M5. 3. Porsche for helping MB to produce such numbers of 036'es. Did I forget anyone? Roger


The head of MB was being interviewed in some business periodical during that era. I think it was Werner Niefer. He was directly asked about possibly buying Porsche given their recent ventures together, and the common knowledge that the late 80s early 90s recession had thoroughly kicked Porsches ass.

I can almost to directly quote his response, remember this is almost, it was more than 20 years ago: "Porsche is not for sale. If Porsche was for sale we would not permit anyone else to buy it." So Porsche clearly was not for sale, regardless of whatever their situation at the time may have been.

Ascension
08-29-2014, 11:37 AM
Don't forget the 4 cylinder! There are some stout first generation S40s running stout E/Ts with just a 4 cyl version of the Whiteblock.

I have mentioned the Porsche/Whiteblock connection on this site a few times, recently and in the past, but as with your post above, it seems as if no one sees it. It's as if no one here wants to acknowledge it. It's OK though, no biggie. Good thing that Volvo guys aren't too sensitive.

Yep 350 to 500 hp 2.0 4's in those 1st gen S40's on the street are not that uncommon. Volvo is a changing company and with the new owners there is s some serious rumblings right now that Volvo is about to take a step out with some serious performance stuff on the street.
If how they came out of no where in the V8 super-car series and stomped an absolute mud hole in both Mercedes and BMW from the 1st race they entered the Polestar cars in the V8 Supercar series is any indication this is going to get interesting over the next few years.

Ascension
08-29-2014, 11:42 AM
The head of MB was being interviewed in some business periodical during that era. I think it was Werner Niefer. He was directly asked about possibly buying Porsche given their recent ventures together, and the common knowledge that the late 80s early 90s recession had thoroughly kicked Porsches ass.

I can almost to directly quote his response, remember this is almost, it was more than 20 years ago: "Porsche is not for sale. If Porsche was for sale we would not permit anyone else to buy it." So Porsche clearly was not for sale, regardless of whatever their situation at the time may have been.

Yep you are dead on as I know both Ford/ Volvo and MB/Chrysler both tried to buy them. Don't think MB has anywhere near as deep pockets as Ford does so that bid war would have gotten interesting!

Klink
08-29-2014, 11:55 AM
Yep you are dead on as I know both Ford/ Volvo and MB/Chrysler both tried to buy them. Don't think MB has anywhere near as deep pockets as Ford does so that bid war would have gotten interesting!

This was like 90 / 91. way before the Chrysler thingie, and at that time Diamler-Benz had fathoms deep pockets. Still do, all things considered...

Ascension
08-29-2014, 12:19 PM
This was like 90 / 91. way before the Chrysler thingie, and at that time Diamler-Benz had fathoms deep pockets. Still do, all things considered...

No doubt they do but it is relative as Ford is the biggest on the planet and that was close to the time they picked up Volvo as well as Jag and some others. They were in full on acquire mode in that era and that's a fact. Not a Ford fan as they almost killed Volvo but facts are facts and MB was just not in their league on the $!

DerFuror
08-30-2014, 12:52 AM
Blah, blah. blah. Ya'll are killin' me this month with the trivial hair-splitting nit-picking...almost to the point of being 500Ebored. Where's the Szvookster? Thank God for the diversion of the Ferraris back in town tomorrow (for eye-candy & highway hunting) & the Vintage races at the Glen next week.

The Connection is easy. The E500E is the top of the line super sports sedan of its time built by Porsche for Mercedes Benz. Its ever-so-true moniker of “built like a Benz, drives like a Porsche” represents the combined productive best of both of these legendary motoring giants regardless of the percentage of whoever did whatever to make it happen (although mostly Mercedes). Who cares? They made it happen & most of us are happy they did.

Just get out & drive your E500E (or fix it, or sell it, or dream about it, or whatever…sheesh)! :e500launch:

PS: thanks for posting the article.

bing
08-30-2014, 07:37 AM
Blah, blah. blah. Ya'll are killin' me this month with the trivial hair-splitting nit-picking...almost to the point of being 500Ebored. Where's the Szvookster? Thank God for the diversion of the Ferraris back in town tomorrow (for eye-candy & highway hunting) & the Vintage races at the Glen next

Just get out & drive your E500E (or fix it, or sell it, or dream about it, or whatever…sheesh)! :e500launch:

.


Yep ! I bet the vookster is saying , " see what I mean !"

For now I'll carry on dreamin' . Thanks Derf!

Melville
08-30-2014, 08:01 AM
No doubt they do but it is relative as Ford is the biggest on the planet and that was close to the time they picked up Volvo as well as Jag and some others. They were in full on acquire mode in that era and that's a fact. Not a Ford fan as they almost killed Volvo but facts are facts and MB was just not in their league on the $!



I shudder to think what Porsche would have become if it had been purchased by Ford. Cheapened and made into a Corvette competitor? Sharing parts with the Mustang? The US car companies don't have a great track record with Euro brands (Jaguar, Volvo, Saab, etc.).

The 500E article was interesting as a look at what people were thinking in the early 90s. I especially liked the parts where Dr. Peter said that their mainstream buyers aren't interested in a factory hotrod (and now the AMG badge appears everywhere) and that it's easier to move from a luxury position to adding a sports car than it is for having a sporting position and adding luxury (BMW seems to have managed that just fine and many BMW purists complain that the company has abandoned its sporting roots).

Stevester 500E
09-25-2014, 01:04 AM
I used to think that 18 days to hand build a 500e was a long time, but it is not when you compare it to how long it takes to build an exotic super car.

I wonder how different the 500e would have been as far as reliable and well built had it not been hand built?
The baby brother, the 400e/e420 are debatably different , but not so different in terms on nuts and bolts.
I think the 400e is just as well built and reliable, as well as both sharing the same Achilles heal.

Did Porsche screwing the 500e together make in any better? Is hand made better period?





Hi,

You are discussing how much Porsche engineer was envolved when developing 124.036. Let me tell my view.

One can get the hint by looking the document 500E_Intro_to_service (http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/W124/500E_Intro_to_Service%28English%29.pdf). I see that the role of Porsche is maximum the delta between the document compared to 'normal' W124 service manual plus taking into account that most of the 'special' parts of .036 were normal MB parts used by other models like w129. I don't know how much that did R&D when modifying the w124 to w124.036.work thay did need a lot help from MB side since only MB guys knew the parts that could be used. Perhaps their role was biggest when developing totally new parts, but I see that amount of 100% .036 unique parts is relatively small. So their role must have been minor in development phase.

Sure, not to forget that Porsche assembled the car with their way of working, standards and quality. ...and the result turned to be legend. :-)


Hi,

You are discussing how much Porsche engineer was envolved when developing 124.036. Let me tell my view.

One can get the hint by looking the document 500E_Intro_to_service (http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/W124/500E_Intro_to_Service%28English%29.pdf). I see that the role of Porsche is maximum the delta between the document compared to 'normal' W124 service manual plus taking into account that most of the 'special' parts of .036 were normal MB parts used by other models like w129. I don't know how much that did R&D when modifying the w124 to w124.036.work thay did need a lot help from MB side since only MB guys knew the parts that could be used. Perhaps their role was biggest when developing totally new parts, but I see that amount of 100% .036 unique parts is relatively small. So their role must have been minor in development phase.

Sure, not to forget that Porsche assembled the car with their way of working, standards and quality. ...and the result turned to be legend. :-)

bing
05-22-2015, 02:27 PM
Interesting discovery today while messing around mate's 036 , don't think I've seen this before ?

Guess where this is located :

https://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2015/05/163.jpghttps://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2015/05/164.jpghttps://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2015/05/165.jpg

M104-AMG
05-22-2015, 03:19 PM
Interesting discovery today while messing around mate's 036 , don't think I've seen this before ?

Guess where this is located :

https://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2015/05/163.jpghttps://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2015/05/164.jpghttps://www.500eboard.com/forums/images/imported/2015/05/165.jpg

I've seen these on the front and rear seats cushions.

:-) neil

nocfn
05-22-2015, 11:17 PM
I have one in my trunk and original data card glued to the underneath of the parcel shelf

036
05-24-2015, 04:24 AM
Ahahahahhh.....how to translate it properly? Very moderate wishes? :D:D:D