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Thread: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Hi all,

    From time to time my 500 E starts hunting / surging between 600 and 1200 rpms with very sudden "attacks". When this situation occurs, I notice at the same time, that the temperature raises to about 100 C. When putting the gear in D, the temperature eventually settles back to its normal operating temperature, and the surging seems to go absent.

    And then again, it can be several days, even weeks, before it happens again.

    The temperature is spot on 82-85 C, if the issue is not present. I do however live in a country with very cold temperatures (September to April is below 0 C), plus I just bought the car, and therefore haven't tried driving the car in the high 20C 's and 30's.

    Any ideas?
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    I don't have any specific ideas (just a couple of wild guesses)... for a proper diagnosis you'll need to pull codes from all 5-6 engine modules, clear all of them, and see which ones return. That should help pinpoint the problem. A hand-held blink code reader like this works well, along with this code translator.

    Do you know if the engine wiring harness has already been replaced? Ditto for the ETA (throttle actuator)? Both are common failures.

    BTW - welcome to the forum!

    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    "Do you know if the engine wiring harness has already been replaced? Ditto for the ETA (throttle actuator)? Both are common failures. "

    I was looking to buy an R129 SL55 a couple of years ago. The car started right up, but it also did exactly what the original poster described.
    I phoned my local Indy mechanic buddy and he said he knew exactly what it was - walk away.
    IIRC, he told me it was the ETA, a fairly expensive fix, right off the bat.
    Granted, he did not check it out, but from what he said, it sounded like a common problem with the M119 engine.
    1992 500E

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Having the same issue currently with the E420 from a friend. But on our End its that it starts approx. 30 seconds after startup and our idle-RPM is at 1350-1500 and then once the "fluctuating" starts, it falls to the 1100mark, then raises again back to 1450 or 1500 every second!

    As soon as we plug-off the vacuum-line on the EZL-DI, and close the vaccum-line, RPM falls to 1100 constant and no "fluctuation" appears.
    Could the OP please also test/verify this, to check if we have a same/similar problem?

    I will post all error-codes soon in my other topic.
    Regards, Christian
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Thanks for replies.

    The wiring harness hasn't been changed. I thought this was only for 06.93's and above..

    Is there a wiring harness belonging to the ETA?

    The ETA itself is expensive - I guess about $1200 right? I already bought the car unfortunately, or actuallly not, it's a 500E - but anyways, I heard someone (don't remember which forum) said some switch in the transmission could cause this. Not sure whether it was the neutral safety switch or something else. Any thoughts on that?

    Any other parts possibly resulting in this?

    Thanks for the LED tip!
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Christian_K:
    Regarding the EZL ignition on your 420. In case you need it I found this: http://www.epartsland.com/products/merc ... 0155456032 for $399.

    Christian_K:
    Does your engine temp go sky-high as well? Your 1100 rpm's are high for normal idle. Mine is at 1100 until warm (45 seconds), 600 rpm's when warm, and 500 rpms when hot and in D. It surges every 1 second (as mentioned), just like yours. Did you have a vacuum leak? I have been suspecting that on my car (213.000 km on the clock and 17 years old, and I have no record of vacuum parts being replaced), but then again, it may be several weeks between it surges/fluctuates. It does seem strange that vacuum leak should come and go. I suspect something electrical, and really hope it is not the ETA.

    My O2 sensor should have been replaced about 53.000 km ago at 160.000 km (about 33k miles ago). Is this sensor a possible suspect?

    Although ETA will be expensive, the last owner and I have an agreement to share any big costs the next 6 months, and we have a 27% to 40% off the price at the dealer through a mechanic we know. I will have to have him troubleshoot the vacuum-line on the EZL, but it is hard to be at his shop exactly when the phenomenon occurs. I'm sure my best bet it to get hold of a fault code reader, so I can plug it in right when it happens.
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    The wiring harness hasn't been changed. I thought this was only for 06.93's and above.
    All the original harnesses had defective insulation. Most have been replaced by now but a few are still out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    Is there a wiring harness belonging to the ETA?
    The ETA has a cable attached to it, which can also degrade like the engine harness... but the ETA cable is not separate.


    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    The ETA itself is expensive - I guess about $1200 right?
    In the USA you can get it for about $1k new, or approx $300 for a rebuild from RFC Electronics (click here).



    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    I heard someone (don't remember which forum) said some switch in the transmission could cause this. Not sure whether it was the neutral safety switch or something else. Any thoughts on that?
    Yes, that switch also provides the gear position to the computers, and it's a common failure. However it shouldn't cause the high-rpm-idle you are experiencing, and there is usually a code which appears frequently if this switch is faulty.

    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
    Click here for my YouTube channel

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    There is wiring INSIDE the ETA that has the same insulation issues as the notorious upper & lower external wiring harnesses. Generally this is the issue with the ETAs. IMHO, if you intend to keep the car, I'd go with a new MB ETA. Otherwise, get a rebuild or get a used one.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    Christian_K:
    Regarding the EZL ignition on your 420. In case you need it I found this: http://www.epartsland.com/products/merc ... 0155456032 for $399.

    Christian_K:
    Does your engine temp go sky-high as well? Your 1100 rpm's are high for normal idle. Mine is at 1100 until warm (45 seconds), 600 rpm's when warm, and 500 rpms when hot and in D. It surges every 1 second (as mentioned), just like yours. Did you have a vacuum leak? I have been suspecting that on my car (213.000 km on the clock and 17 years old, and I have no record of vacuum parts being replaced), but then again, it may be several weeks between it surges/fluctuates. It does seem strange that vacuum leak should come and go. I suspect something electrical, and really hope it is not the ETA.

    My O2 sensor should have been replaced about 53.000 km ago at 160.000 km (about 33k miles ago). Is this sensor a possible suspect?

    Although ETA will be expensive, the last owner and I have an agreement to share any big costs the next 6 months, and we have a 27% to 40% off the price at the dealer through a mechanic we know. I will have to have him troubleshoot the vacuum-line on the EZL, but it is hard to be at his shop exactly when the phenomenon occurs. I'm sure my best bet it to get hold of a fault code reader, so I can plug it in right when it happens.
    Hi,
    we have not yet solved the issue. I have now bought a digital scanner to locate the issue better. I have so far not find a single vacuum-leak, we replaced the line to the EZL which was basically broken forever as it looked at the cracked spot. Even when all the caccum-lines where broken, they could never cause 1500RPM idle, the vaccum-lines are to small to let such a high amount of air flow through them.

    No our car don't go into sky-high temps, nor should yours when the thermostate is working as it should and your cooling-system is not slagged with dirt and stuff.

    Could you please just pull the vaccum-line from your EZL once the fluctuation every second starts? I would be so curious if we might have the same problem.
    By the way, error-codes aswell as live-data shows me that our EZL is fully Ok.
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    mb280sel1985 wrote:
    I heard someone (don't remember which forum) said some switch in the transmission could cause this. Not sure whether it was the neutral safety switch or something else. Any thoughts on that?
    and

    Yes, that switch also provides the gear position to the computers, and it's a common failure. However it shouldn't cause the high-rpm-idle you are experiencing, and there is usually a code which appears frequently if this switch is faulty.
    I see from the EPC that there is a few switches regarding the transmission. another one I found was:

    A 000 545 62 06 - SWITCH - STARTER NON-REPEAT AND BACK-UP LIGHT SWITCH

    I know nothing about this part, but - from the name "starter non-repeat" it almost sounds as if this switch could "repeat starter", if not working properly. And we all know that starting a car makes the rpm's go up and down... Maybe just a wild guess? I'm probably way out on what this switch is all about..

    The switch in the transmission I once read about, as mentioned above, also did not trigger any fault codes, making this a switch that very few remember to check..
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    No our car don't go into sky-high temps, nor should yours when the thermostate is working as it should and your cooling-system is not slagged with dirt and stuff.
    The thermostat was just replaced some months ago (made no difference to the sudden high temp, but did make it stable when not surging), and the coolant system was renewed. The coolant did however, according to the mechanic, contain small traces of oil in it. Me and my friend was there to see the whole operation, and we both disagreed afterwards, because the container the coolant layed in afterwards, was a little dirty prior to the draining. Now, that said, the car has had some excessive smoke (looks white), and a very minor tikking sound right after startup. (only for a couple of seconds). This could of course be a head gasket getting sloppy..

    Could you please just pull the vaccum-line from your EZL once the fluctuation every second starts? I would be so curious if we might have the same problem.
    Can you send a descriptive picture on how? I'll try it withouth help from my mechanic.

    By the way, error-codes aswell as live-data shows me that our EZL is fully Ok.
    So there were no fault codes whatsoever?
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Please read the full story here ^^
    viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1057

    Well no there was only one code, and its the crankshaft-position sesnor near the transmission, however if that would be really broken, then the car wouldn't start anymore i guess.
    Otherwhise everything else as expected. Ignition-angles perfect, etc etc.
    Yes the Part "SWITCH - STARTER NON-REPEAT AND BACK-UP LIGHT SWITCH" is the correct one. However it will never cause such high RPMs and that second-wise fluctuation of RPMs
    Christian K.
    06/1992 500E - DB199 Blauschwarz-Metallic
    09/1989 300E - DB172 Anthrazitgrau-Metallic
    11/1998 E430 - DB339 Violan-Metallic
    06/2003 CL55 AMG KOMPRESSOR - DB197 Obsidianschwarz-Metallic


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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian_K
    Yes the Part "SWITCH - STARTER NON-REPEAT AND BACK-UP LIGHT SWITCH" is the correct one. However it will never cause such high RPMs and that second-wise fluctuation of RPMs
    Did you try to replace it though?

    What does this switch actually do, technically speaking?
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    What does this switch actually do, technically speaking?
    1) It prevents the starter from engaging unless the transmission is in P or N
    2) It turns on the backup lights when the transmission is in R
    3) It tells the engine computers the position of the gearshift lever (P, R, N, D, 3, 2)
    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    What does this switch actually do, technically speaking?
    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr
    1) It prevents the starter from engaging unless the transmission is in P or N
    2) It turns on the backup lights when the transmission is in R
    3) It tells the engine computers the position of the gearshift lever (P, R, N, D, 3, 2)
    Ok, that's great information. I guess number 3 here could be the problem; that it's not signaling the correct positions. -That the switching of i.e. D and P, is signaled incorrectly to the computer, pulsing every second by a fault in the switch.
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Thank's everyone, I will try that switch before I buy any expensive stuff

    I'll keep you posted.

    Christian_K:
    Could you please just pull the vaccum-line from your EZL once the fluctuation every second starts? I would be so curious if we might have the same problem.
    Me:
    Can you send a descriptive picture on how? I'll try it withouth help from my mechanic.
    Send me, and I'll check the vacuum-line from the EZL.
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    E500E Guru 500ESpain's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    I have a similar problem but without temperature issues. The car doesn't idle smoothly in P or N. Almost perfect in D. I had a NSS code so I replaced but no improvement.
    Esteban

    1971 Seat 600E, 1981 Mercedes 300TD, 1984 Mercedes 300D, 1992 Mercedes 500E, 1995 Range Rover 4.6 HSE, 2005 Audi A4 2.5TDI Avant, 2007 Triumph Bonneville

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by 500ESpain
    I have a similar problem but without temperature issues. The car doesn't idle smoothly in P or N. Almost perfect in D. I had a NSS code so I replaced but no improvement.
    Yeah, that's a different problem. I assume your car is a 124.036.. how 'bout O2 sender unit, plug cables, coil caps and rotors..?

    Please start a new thread though, if it is not related (as it seems).
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    Yeah, that's a different problem. I assume your car is a 124.036.. how 'bout O2 sender unit, plug cables, coil caps and rotors..?

    Please start a new thread though, if it is not related (as it seems).

    Well, is bad idle in a particular gear so I think it's not that different. I've replaced everything you said. Thanks anyway for your advise.
    Esteban

    1971 Seat 600E, 1981 Mercedes 300TD, 1984 Mercedes 300D, 1992 Mercedes 500E, 1995 Range Rover 4.6 HSE, 2005 Audi A4 2.5TDI Avant, 2007 Triumph Bonneville

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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    I've been chasing the same rough idle and occasional surging issue in my 93 500E with 238K on the odometer. Finally triggered code 18 "Magnets for crankshaft position sensor (CKP) not recognized." First time it has thrown this code. Replaced crankshaft reference sensor 003 153 49 28. The car has not reproduced the idle problem since replacement. Recommend anyone with this problem check this component. Be aware sensor/magnet signal might occasionally be faulty without throwing code. Hope this helps.
    1993 Mercedes 500E
    2004 Mercedes E55

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by cole67
    I've been chasing the same rough idle and occasional surging issue in my 93 500E with 238K on the odometer. Finally triggered code 18 "Magnets for crankshaft position sensor (CKP) not recognized." First time it has thrown this code. Replaced crankshaft reference sensor 003 153 49 28. The car has not reproduced the idle problem since replacement. Recommend anyone with this problem check this component. Be aware sensor/magnet signal might occasionally be faulty without throwing code. Hope this helps.
    Thank you cole67. I will investigate this on my car.

    I must add, today this morning, I experienced a strange thing:

    I started the car from cold (it's been sitting since Friday), and had a minor hard time getting it started - it took about 3-4 seconds. When the car started, it did not raise the rpms to the cold start level (around 1.200 rpms), but was immediatedly resting on 600 rpms. It was about -2C / 30F inside the garage. What happens next was a bit conserning. I was not able to give any throttle to it at all. No matter how much I punch the pedal, there was no throttle signal raised.. I had to turn off the engine, and start it again. Now the car works normal.

    Is this a sensor problem as well, or does this tell you there is something else wrong with the car?

    Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Senior Member Prime's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    I don't want to skew the topic here, but my car is doing something similar, but opposite (does that make sense?). It idles fine in P or N, but surges at idle under load (in D). This only happens occasionally, and only in cold weather (below freezing). I have replaced the wiring harness, and the ETA was replaced last spring for this exact problem, and it seemed to cure it, but when cold weather returned, so did the issue. Maybe ETA replacement didn't address the issue at all, but rather it just was warm enough outside that it stopped happening.

    I'm wondering if the crank position sensor could be my problem as well. Where does this code show up? How difficult is the sensor to DIY? I see the part at AuthausAZ for about $140.
    1993 500E - SOLD
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Crank position sensor is located at the rear of the engine, behind the left (driver side) cylinder head, below a plastic cover on the tranny bellhousing. It's difficult to access. As long as the sensor is not seized/stuck in place (which can happen, unfortunately) it will wiggle out and you just slide in a new one. If you can't get the old sensor out, I think you may need to pull the transmission to remove the bracket which attaaches the sensor to the block.

    First thing is to pull all codes using a hand-held LED blink code reader, then clear them all, and see which ones return. The codes which come back are the ones you need to worry about.

    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
    Click here for my website
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    Senior Member cole67's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    My engine was reproducing all the issues you guys reference above. Code 18 "Magnets for crankshaft position sensor (CKP) not recognized"- was pulled from DI LH-SFI. Be aware you might not be throwing the code and still experience erratic idle conditions. When installing the sensor be aware of the shims for proper orientation.
    1993 Mercedes 500E
    2004 Mercedes E55

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Anybody know the difference between these two crankshaft position sensors?

    Part no:
    -A 003 153 49 28 (Hella only)
    -A 003 153 50 28 (Hella, Bosch)

    They are both options for my car in the EPC
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Does anybody have a "good" list of the sensors throughout the car, which should be considered changed after 17 years of living?

    I'm primarily then looking for those that have an impact on drivability. So far I have ordered the oxygen sensor, which should have been replaced at 160K km. The car has got 215K km (135K miles) on it so far.
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Hi everyone,

    Since the issue has not been fixed (and it only happens occationally), I have posted a video that may be a little more describing..

    W124 500E surging issue
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TU7Yq76ZI

    Anyone knows what's going on??
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

  28. #28
    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Ok, some updates. I took the car to the indy shop to read fault codes.

    He used the "Autologic" scanner - http://www.autologic-diagnostics.com/di ... iagnostics

    At first, we thought this might not work, since the scanner doesn't list the 500E/E500. But the W140 was available from the menu, so we used that setup. It gave results, and this is a multiplexer device which also gives live data.

    Using the scanner showed "no current fault codes", when having the ignition set. But when looking at stored faults, there was a whole 5 pages long list of more than 20 codes. He turned the ignition off and back on, and then there were just 2 codes showing.

    The codes were "12 - heated oxygen sensor heater, open/short circuit", and the "9 - Intake air temperature sensor, open/short circuit".

    -We found that the air intake temp sensor was disconnected! The (MAF was replaced less than a year ago, and the data looked ok - about 35-37 'something'.)
    -The O2 sensor was ok when reading the live data as well.

    We wrapped it up by clearing the codes, and I got to drive all the way to work (1 hour) with no problems, and a more calm and correctly idling engine after reconnecting the cable.

    However I noticed when putting the transmission in P at the destination, that the rpms went up to 1200-1500. So the problem was not resolved I guess.

    Regarding my question to him - if there were any vacuum leaks - he said that the live data from the O2 sensor, would have peaked in one or the other direction of the scale, giving an absolute readout. He concluded that there were no leaks, because the O2 sensor readouts were variable and looked fairly OK.

    I will be returning to the indy shop shortly, to see if any similar or new codes have popped or not.

    I'm not sure he was able to read all types of codes, from all modules with that Autologic device. I'm not sure any codes regarding gearbox-selection "D, R, N, etc" (ref Christian_K from the video I posted) would show.. I assume this would be the "Starter non-repeat and back-up light switch".

    Any thoughts on this latest experience anyone?

    Anyone used the Autologic device?
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

  29. #29
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Some time ago, when changing a light bulb, I left the air temperature sensor disconnected by accident. The main effect of this was that the car surged slightly when slowing down and when in neutral. However when driving where was no noticeable difference. When I reconnected the sensor the issue went a way.

    When I bought my car originally it had a problem when slowing down; the engine surged enough so that it felt like a warped disk. However once stopped the engine was fine. I traced this to a pipe which had become disconnected from the control valve for the evaporative control system. This valve is beside the EZL and was disconnected on the engine side. Once reconnected the surging went away. The electronic throttle could cater for this when idling, however I assume the leak was enough to upset the control algorithm when trying to get to the idle speed when slowing down.

    As above this had no discernible effect when driving.

    Could you have an air leak somewhere, perhaps when a valve is opened when the engine is warm?

    If the throttle was forced into limp-home mode, does it still maintain the idle speed or is the throttle fixed in one position? If it does remained fixed, it might be worth putting it into limp-home mode to see if the idle speed still increases after a drive. Perhaps someone with more experience can comment.

    Best of luck.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Benzer's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Go over the readings you obtained from the live data feed from your MAS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benzer
    Got back from the Merc. Shop where they ran a STAR on it.. Also a Oscilloscope reading which turned out with nothing out of line, indicating the ignition values where OK..I guess.. However, even though NO codes indicated problems with the MAS. It read 34Kg/hr, nominal values are said to be 20-24Kg./Hr...so its shot.. This in turn ruined my O2 sensor and spark plugs..
    You might find these links on Jim's page helpful..

    http://www.k6jrf.com/MB_Lmbda.html

    Regarding the noise from one of your engine banks.
    http://www.k6jrf.com/MB_lifter.html
    1995 E420 131K Daily D.
    VIN: WDBEA34E3SC151635

    "Destiny is said to be the power held to determine the course of success.
    And success is a direct result of effort"

  31. #31
    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    POSSIBLY SOLVED:

    Ok, I really think I have fixed most issues.
    Here is the last 7 days of development:

    Summary of problem described earlier:
    A. Surging at idling between 800-1200 rpms +/- every 2 seconds.
    B. Limp home mode - no throttle unless pressing pedal 2/3 way down
    C. Uneven idle control - very fine pushing and retarding
    D. Rough and low idling - sometimes at 650 rpms - other times at 450-500 rpms
    E. Some misfiring or hesitation at appx 4000-4500 rpms - also when shifting gear at 5500 rpms (during full throttle), it would choke at 4000-4500 rpms.

    The car frequently kicked into limp home mode, more than 15 times during my 30 minute drive to work.
    Some days worse than others. Last week it was so bad, that not even a restart would help.

    1. Friday last week:
    a. Went to indy shop as described in previous post. Checked with diagnostics multiplexer tool (Autologic).
    b. Turned out that the O2 sensor was faulting.
    c. Also the air temp sensor, which turned out to be a loose connection.
    d. Reconnected the air temp sensor that was off.
    e. Then cleared both codes.

    Experience after 1 - reconnecting AIR TEMP SENSOR:
    The car was not going into limp home mode more than 5-6 times. This was during 2 separate 1 hour test drives.
    The car was much more responsive and somewhat reduced the problems in 'E' above.

    2. Tuesday:
    a. Went to another MB specialist.
    b. Used Star Diagnosis from Mercedes Benz.
    c. Turned out O2 sensor was bad (again as in 1b).

    3. Wednesday:
    a. Changed the O2 sensor - part A0005404517.

    Experience after 3 - changing O2 SENSOR:
    a. Further improvment. The car only went into limp home mode 2 times. This was during 5 separate test drives from wednesday to friday.
    b. Though improved - still surging as described in problem 'A' above, when coming to a stop during limp home mode (in neutral/park).
    c. Engine runs remarkably calmer - rough idling gone
    d. Engine starts easier
    e. A lot better response off gas pedal

    4. Friday:
    a. Changed all engine mounts (2+1). Worn 3 centimeters at most (more than 1 inch)
    Experience 4a: The engine is as new! No more rumbling and noise. I can barely hear it running.

    b. Checked both rotors and caps, the coil and plug cables/plugs. Turned out to be fine.

    c. Found and fixed leak in hydraulics
    Experience 4c: I don't quite make the difference - but the car is much more stable on the road. This may of course be due to change of engine and tranny mounts - or both.

    d. Found a loose vacuum hose at the top-right side of transmission from looking beneath. The guy cloged the hose - he just wasn't able to figure out where it was supposed to sit.
    Experience 4d: This obviously made a big difference for problem described in 'C' - there is no pushing and pulling anymore. I do think this was the second problem responsible for limp home mode, when idle is way out of control.

    e. Engine temperature seems to be very stable now. I let it sit idling. Not until 10 minutes had passed, the temp read 107 celcius, and the fans kicked in. 2 minutes later, the temp was back to 100C, and the fans switched back off. It used to go high pretty quickly, and strugled getting back to a descent temp level. While driving it sits at 82 C. Hope that is not too cool. I just gave up a 280 engine, that couldn't reach above 60 C. The engine was literally totaled. While driving in heavy stop and go traffic, it also didn't raise to more than 90 C at any time. This is good news I think. I wonder if the O2 sensor combined with the vacuum leak, could make the engine get a bad mix, and ultimatedly result in higher pressure at the block.. so the temp goes up. Is this a possible theory?

    Sum up:
    I am really worried about the vacuum hose that the indy guy fixed, by clogging the vackuum hose, to stop it from leaking air. This hose should obviously sit somewhere!

    Can anyone tell me where this vacuum hose is supposed to sit? - reference 4d above.

    Of course, I still have problems with low rpms. Anyone?

    The MAF live readings saying +/- 37 Kg.. Is this correct readings? - I still hear some puffs from the exhaust - besides, maybe this is the reason for low rpms at idle?
    Sorry, I just saw your post Benzer:

    Got back from the Merc. Shop where they ran a STAR on it.. Also a Oscilloscope reading which turned out with nothing out of line, indicating the ignition values where OK..I guess.. However, even though NO codes indicated problems with the MAS. It read 34Kg/hr, nominal values are said to be 20-24Kg./Hr...so its shot.. This in turn ruined my O2 sensor and spark plugs..
    I guess this MAF should be further checked.

    Overall the car has not had any issues after this week's fixes! I am really happy
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

  32. #32
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    The MAF live readings saying +/- 37 Kg.. Is this correct readings? - I still hear some puffs from the exhaust - besides, maybe this is the reason for low rpms at idle?
    Is that 37kg/hr at idle? If so, that is very high. Here are the values I measured on my 500E's (at 2700' elevation - not sure if that makes much difference).

    20-22kg @ idle (650rpm)
    30-34kg at 1000rpm
    60-65kg at 2000rpm
    90-100kg at 3000rpm

    If the MAF sensor is original, I would replace it, or swap in another one to test with. Also, with the new O2 sensor, the LH adaptation should be re-set. Ditto if you change the MAF.

    Dave M.
    1997 E420 (Bugeyes)
    1994 E420 (Blondie)
    1994 E500 (Q-ship)
    1992 500E (Mach 5)
    1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
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  33. #33
    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    The MAF live readings saying +/- 37 Kg.. Is this correct readings? - I still hear some puffs from the exhaust - besides, maybe this is the reason for low rpms at idle?
    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr
    Is that 37kg/hr at idle? If so, that is very high. Here are the values I measured on my 500E's (at 2700' elevation - not sure if that makes much difference).

    20-22kg @ idle (650rpm)
    30-34kg at 1000rpm
    60-65kg at 2000rpm
    90-100kg at 3000rpm

    If the MAF sensor is original, I would replace it, or swap in another one to test with. Also, with the new O2 sensor, the LH adaptation should be re-set. Ditto if you change the MAF.

    The MAF sensor is refurbished - installed in spring 2010.
    Yes 37 kg/hr. I didn't know the rpms had an impact. I think this value was read while the car was in limp home mode actually. That would mean the rpms would have been swimming somewhere around 1200-1500 rpms (after done surging the idle becomes stable yet high).

    I need to go back and get new reading, while the idle is sitting at its normal revs.

    Your reference list is to great help. Thanks!
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

  34. #34
    Senior Member mb280sel1985's Avatar
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    Re: 500E Feb.93 rapid surging on idle in P (park)

    Quote Originally Posted by mb280sel1985
    Does anybody have a "good" list of the sensors throughout the car, which should be considered changed after 17 years of living?

    I'm primarily then looking for those that have an impact on drivability. So far I have ordered the oxygen sensor, which should have been replaced at 160K km. The car has got 215K km (135K miles) on it so far.
    I think I found a good resource for this myself. It is a list of relays and control modules for W124 (including the 500E/E500 124.036)
    http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%2 ... ontrol.pdf
    2007 C200 CDI
    1993 500 E
    1985 280 SEL
    2001 C200 Kompressor
    1987 300 E (US)

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