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Thread: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

  1. #121
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    brought it home today

    we diagnosed the knocking --- awaiting on cams...swapped a new rocker in mean time

    did the LCA ball joints, all 4 bushings for the suspension mounts, and the guide rod mounts, -need to take it for alignment

    transmission fluid and leak seal, PS box reseal, brake fluid and flush.


    once cams arrive or i find a genuine, will do the chain and rails etc.....probably replace any old line, fuel, vacuum etc.

    tossed on some old rims today too
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    M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    When you do the cam work — replace everything rubber or plastic sitting on the top end of the motor. Every hose, every vacuum line. It’s the time to do it.


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Yeah agreed. Is Mercedes still selling all those parts or is the aftermarket acceptable
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Generally the tubes are in great shape, just clean them and be careful not to bend. The plastic oiler clips for the journals are available from MB as well as the tubes. Vacuum hose is the same everywhere.
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  6. #125
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I bought genuine clips. I'll let the mechanic check all plastics and change as needed.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    If the rubber tubes are in the least bit non-flexible or hard, replace them.

    MB rubber for the long rubber straight injector air tubes that run along the inside of each head next to the valve covers. MB plastic fittings for those.

    MB for rubber cross tubes that fits on top of the intake manifold, under the injection plenum.

    MB large rubber boot for the underside of the air meter plate assembly.

    MB rubber boot for the idle speed air valve.

    MB coupe-specific hood pad, if crunchy or peeling.

    MB brown plastic cam oiler tube fittings.

    MB rubber vacuum line fittings/elbows.

    MB plastic fuel injector fittings.

    MB rubber fuel injector seals.

    MB rubber valve cover gaskets.

    MB rubber fuel lines.

    MB plastic/rubber vacuum line to brake booster.

    Skinny vacuum lines are available anywhere, but cheap from MB. Most colors no longer available, so just go with white.

    I realize that all of this goes against what Banzworld peeps say. Banzworld people have doubted me in the past, but they have gotten what they have coming when they choose sub-standard rubber and Chinese parts, or do a half-ass job and don't replace what needs to be replacing.

    Trust me, you won't regret doing it right the first time. I've got 7+ years and 60+K miles on my rebuild and it runs as well as the day I first fired it up.

  8. #127
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I'm fine buying MB for a bit more money . if some products are true OE and will save some money then win win. Especially for this car. 32 yrs single family ownership. The best or nothing.

    U listed part numbers on your rebuild thread right. I'll check. Assuming these are same for 500 as are for 560.

    I may go cheaper with in reason when it comes to the 500sec. But nothing Chinese. I actually might sell it to help finance the rest of the sel recovery. We will see.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I agree with Honch. I replaced all of the upper manifold bits with genuine after 5 years of baking, along with all the injectors, cups and seals. It just makes so much sense while you are there to do it all and be done with it, especially since you are messing with two of the same engines. The horizontal acceleration linkage was crimped but wasn't responding. I bought new from MB and the perfect out of the box length made a huge difference in throttle response. Clean and lube your linkage!.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    going with 117, returning 116

    thanks guys
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  11. #130
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    An update on my engine knocking issues and whats been going on.


    So my uncle in UK was able to finally send me a set of camshafts from a Donor 500se. Ill be taking them my shop for inspection to make sure these cams are good to use....praying they otherwise im a down another large chunk of $$


    so here is my conundrum.


    I have one bad worn right side noisy cam that has been temporarily been quieted by a new rocker, and i have the stock left side cam which we assume is fine, but we have not inspected yet.


    I have 2 used cams in hand right and left which need to be checked


    and I have one brand new left side camshaft that i bought just in case.


    SO the question is, lets say the donor right cam is good and we swap that out, should i go ahead and use the brand new left side cam even if the current left side is ok after inspection, or just leave that one....i could return the new one back to MB dealer. ....and save some $ or would it better just to go ahead and swap it out anyways....even if i cant get a new one for right side


    do right and left side cams have to be of equal wear to work well together or does it not matter


    Please let me know what you think. thanks
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    It isn't required that both be done at the same time in the FSM, it is just work to do "while you are in there", so to speak. The valve train on the side you need to do along with the seals. Chain, guides, sprockets, tensioner you did or have planned to do with this job? So maybe Jono chimes in, but one bank' complete valve train is suffice (gasket, copper crush washers and oilers are a given).
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    If the other side checks out OK, has no visible signs of wear (pull the rockers to inspect of course...wear Starts @ the rocker!) then I'd carry on/leave the old cam in place....I Doubt the rockers are going to be nice, nice so I would have a spare 8 rockers ready to go...Y'all will need to 2X check lash cap thickness after install.

    do you have any pics of the used cams from the UK? Really, b/w visual inspection and a Good Hard Look @ the lobes for breaks in the hardening/striations it's pretty easy to tell yay or nay.

    jono
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    i just dropped them off with my mechanic...he wants to send them to Mike at metric motors for inspection and polishing.....im sure hoping these are good....otherwise im down a crap load more $$$....u dont even want to know how much shipping was from UK to here....for some reason my uncle decided to express it, mailed friday from london, arrived to cali monday.....

    i dont have fresh rockers ready.

    Ill probably return the NEW MB left side camshaft, luckily the dealer is cool and gave me a yr to return it rather than 30 days.....

    are lash cap the shims you mentioned before...these are the bits my mechanic will know about beyond my knowledge yet

    btw , would running the car on a dyno like i did 4 yrs ago have any cause in whats happened to my car?
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by vdubpower View Post
    btw , would running the car on a dyno like i did 4 yrs ago have any cause in whats happened to my car?
    Dyno pulls should not hurt the engine or vehicle in any way, assuming it was not overheated and not over-revved.


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    +1 dyno run didn't hurt a thing. Your problem IF the cam oiler tubes were all still seated properly/not broken is entirely due to lack of Zinc/Phosphate in your oil. I see if All The Time now. Shame really as ppl are trying to be vigilant in getting their oil changed on time/correct weight etc but unless you're eyeball deep into what's going on with oil you just don't know...:-/

    I'd have sent the cams off to Isky for inspection and parkerizing if I was going to send them anywhere. The parkerizing is what you want for a break in material if you are going to have Anything on them...and Isky has been in the cam business longer then anyone that I know of...

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    as an aside, one of the local emissions inspectors in my town will not run a dyno on the required older model RWD MB/BMW/Porche due to an incident he had when the machine malfunctioned. Years ago, he ended up buying a new complete rear end on a 80's BMW due to the malfunction at high RPMs during the test. So if your car needs a dyno inspection, he does it under the stricter testing and if it fails the test, then he goes to the more permissive dyno. Talk about taking the profits away for a few months ....
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    i had the dyno done because i thought it would be cool back then to see what it pulled.....plus i had the e63 done back then too.

    ill look in to ISKy cams and go from there...is parkerizing similiar to regrinds or something totally different.

    i reckon if these cams are useless my only option is buy a febi or just do nothing

    ive got brad penn ready to go btw
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by vdubpower View Post
    i had the dyno done because i thought it would be cool back then to see what it pulled.....plus i had the e63 done back then too.
    E63! Oooo... what year? Still have that dyno graph too?


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!



    actually a 2012
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by vdubpower View Post
    actually a 2012
    500 at the wheels - niiiiice. That's the twin-turbo motor, correct? Stock or tuned?


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Stock. Yes biturbo. I left it stock. Its my DD so not interested in issues with tunes. Renntech, weistec etc are adding 200hp to these to knock off tenths in 1/4 miles times. Otherwise for everyday California traffic there's no point.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    time to update this slow moving thread.....

    so the cams from londons donor car were sent to Mike at Metric Motors and were prepped and polished and given the thumbs up...im gonna talk to my mecahinic about what jono had mentioned about parkerizing them ......jeez im so far down on $$ on this car since summer and we havent even done the labor on the chain and putting the cams in.....what we do for the love of these cars
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    For those longing for an update...so the plan is on Jan 2... Install the new camshafts...

    Now we have never opened the left side yet...as we know it is the right side that failed first for whatever reason.

    My thought is just do both sides now that I have a polished matching set with around 50000 miles less than my original.

    I'm sure some will say just do the bad side... I'm not a car doctor..but I play on on the forums so my feeling is do both while in there...its just money


    Seriously tho. I have the two cams, cam gears, 16 rockers (followers, tappets)..new chain, tensioner, guides for upper, engine mounts, plastic oil tube holders and two crates of brad pen n.... I think that's it

    I'm trying to explain the whole zinc issue to my mechanic... He has been using castrol gtx with no issues and he works on every classic Benz from gullwing and up. Interestingly the paperwork that comes back from metric also recommends castrol gtx or high mileage...

    So whatever caused my cam lobe wear after 32 yrs....who knows. I think its multifactorial.

    As long as this work we are doing now will allow the car to carry on for another 32 yrs....then my daughter can sort it out...not my problem
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    M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    If the higher zinc prolongs the interval of mx visits, why would the shop do anything different?
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  30. #145
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    After 180K, my SEC's passenger side cam flattened out, no reason other than I had used the same oil for many years at 2-3K oil change intervals...Chevron changed the formulation of the oil I had been using to basically halve the levels of ZDDP in it. I had not paid attention to this formulation change. My engine was otherwise in excellent shape.

    Since the rebuild I've been using Brad Penn, 60+K miles & going on eight years on it and zero problems lubrication wise.

    Go with what's proven and works, not with what a mechanic says who doesn't necessarily know the needs of older Benzes. If a mechanic isn't "up" on the ZDDP issue with flat-tappet/cam follower engines, that tells me they wouldn't be qualified to work on a Benz or other car with such.

    Newer valvetrain geometry as used in the M104, M119, M120 and newer engines doesn't have the level of friction that the cam-follower Benz models (M116, M117, M103, and older models) have. Not to mention many GM muscle cars from the 1960s and 1970s. Thus, you can get away with oils with less ZDDP on the newer cars. But for an M117 or M103 ... it's Brad Penn or other oils with appropriate (1200-1400 PPM) levels of ZDDP additive in the motor oil.

    Cheers,
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I hear u... Not gonna get too much back in the zinc debate...we have been thru that and my research here with u guys has convinced me... All I can say about my mechanic is if he tells me for 40 yrs of working on MB only he has never had issues as such with my car with what he uses... Then that's what his experience is... And thus his practice would be based on his experience.
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Jono, who works on these cars day in and day out, can tell you many horror stories just like mine of lubrication related issues. It's not just an occasional/one-off thing. It's real. Trust me -- I changed my oil at 2-2.5K intervals religiously, and still got burned because of bad oil. If you/mechanic want to use Castrol, just do the research to make sure it has acceptable levels of the right stuff.

    Unfortunately the world of oils changed about 10 years ago. I got burned. I hope others don't.

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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    like you said you were doing excellent maintenance on your car and still got burned....it wasnt until you did your research and due diligence that you switched to the zinc oil...as the same is now with me....

    i dont want it to sound like Tony is the reason for my issues because of his oil changes...ive had multiple mechanics over 30 yrs and im sure they all used what they felt was proper at that time...

    when i brought this topic up to him, and explained that probably the castrol he has been using forever, isnt the same castrol he thought it was secondary to formulation changes.....so he has probably just been using what works for him for past 4 decades....

    im not arguing with the facts, thus i told u that i did purchase a few crates of BP . you all convinced me, im gonna try to convince tony and so on.....

    out of all the local shops in orange/santa ana area i still wouldnt trust anyone else with these motors....

    btw, MR MB in encino, who everyone in the LA area revered as a very knowledgeable tech, very trust worthy etc never used BP either...so yeah the situation is what it is now...and we move on.....im just hoping that every goes fine
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    NO Indy shops use Brad Penn. most have never heard of the stuff. Except folks who really specialize hardcore in these motors, like Jono. Now I know that you Banzworld 126 forum folks hate Jono....he doesn’t bother with BW anymore, rather hangs out here where better quality enthusiasts live & learn.

    Remember as I said that oils of 10-15 years ago have changed because of SAE ratings, which specify less ZDDP.

    If you own a 126, I’d believe what Jono says over 250 Banzworld 126 people. That’s just me though. A 15.5 year SEC owner and 14.5 year E500 owner.


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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    http://www.camoils.com/engine-oil/zddp.php

    A little blurb on the changes to castrol gtx.

    We share a similar need to the Porsche air cooled crowd.

    Did 2 more sets of 560 cams in the last 2 months. Religiously maintained cars. Just improper additives.

    Do everything, do no it once...do it Right and you'll be Golden.

    Jono
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  40. #151
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    whoa man careful with the "you" comment

    i dont get into that crap they get into with other members....i goto both forums for advice and the learn...thats it... you wont find a single post from me blasting jono or anyone...i had the pleasure to briefly meet him this past august in MOnterery....

    like i said before im not interested in the back and forth...im here to learn and keep my cars running, as a 32 yr w126 owner ( even if i was just a back seat rider when we got it).

    btw im working my way thru reading all of your DIY threads...they are fantastic
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  41. #152
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    jono what are you doing for cars like mine, 500 cars with 08/09 stamped cams



    funny....my local porsche shop......also 40 yrs only doing porsches uses castrol gtx too.....
    Last edited by vdubpower; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:17 PM.
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  43. #153
    E500E Guru Jlaa's Avatar
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    http://www.camoils.com/engine-oil/zddp.php

    A little blurb on the changes to castrol gtx.
    We share a similar need to the Porsche air cooled crowd.
    Did 2 more sets of 560 cams in the last 2 months. Religiously maintained cars. Just improper additives.
    Do everything, do no it once...do it Right and you'll be Golden.

    Jono
    Yeah those air-cooled Porsche guys get crazy on the oil-discussions. Makes the 500Eboard discussions about ATF fluid look impressively sedate.

    For a while I was buying 20W-50 Mobil 1 V-Twin Oil [1750 ppm ZDDP & supposedly group IV base stock] for my 911 (after being influenced by all those nuts-o air-cooled guys) but then I figured I was just throwing money down the drain ---- that stuff costs like 3x - 4x more that "regular 'ol" group III base stock Mobil-1 15W-50 w/ 1300 ZDDP --- which you can get for $25 in 5 quart jugs at Wally World.

    These days I just use Mobil-1 15W-50 in both the 911 and the 500E (not that the 500E needs higher levels of zinc) because I figure:

    1) I do an oil change every 12 months
    2) I'm only driving like 3-4K miles / year on these cars --- so not too concerned about a group III base stock shearing down with age.
    3) I get to "stock" only one motor oil in my small garage.

    BTW --- here's an M1 data sheet - https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...pecs-guide.pdf
    Last edited by Jlaa; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:54 AM.
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  45. #154
    E500E Guru Trae's Avatar
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I use Brad Penn in both M117s.
    They LOVE it.
    Trae
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    1993 500E
    1990 560SEC/ 2001 SL500
    1991 560SEC ECE/1995 E320 Cabriolet

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  47. #155
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I've had Quite the collection of good used cams from cars I've parted/Trips to the bone yard over the years.


    In some instances, I've found a hotter cam for which ever car in question..no one has complained there...

    I think your fellow is still operating under the assumption that Castrol GTX is what is Used to be....it's not an uncommon mistake these days. I think he would do well to read up on what all is Up w/ GTX these days....but that's just me!

    Quote Originally Posted by vdubpower View Post
    jono what are you doing for cars like mine, 500 cars with 08/09 stamped cams


    funny....my local porsche shop......also 40 yrs only doing porsches uses castrol gtx too.....
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  48. #156
    E500E Guru nocfn's Avatar
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    M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I just pumped 8 BP 20/50 into mine along with a new Mann. Filter was black but extraction hose had a clean green tint to it.
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

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  50. #157
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    I think your fellow is still operating under the assumption that Castrol GTX is what is Used to be....it's not an uncommon mistake these days. I think he would do well to read up on what all is Up w/ GTX these days....but that's just me!
    Exactly correct. The same thing happened when Mobil-1 quietly changed their formula from Group IV/V base stocks to Group III, with no decrease in price. This was in the early 2000's. Took me several years to figure out what happened. I'm still pissed off at Mobil and generally avoid buying their products.


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  52. #158
    Member vdubpower's Avatar
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    Quote Originally Posted by jhodg5ck View Post
    I've had Quite the collection of good used cams from cars I've parted/Trips to the bone yard over the years.


    In some instances, I've found a hotter cam for which ever car in question..no one has complained there...

    I think your fellow is still operating under the assumption that Castrol GTX is what is Used to be....it's not an uncommon mistake these days. I think he would do well to read up on what all is Up w/ GTX these days....but that's just me!
    100% and I've told him that but I understand where he is coming from.... If he told me how to do knee surgery why would I listen to him..

    One may then say go get another mechanic... But I'm not doing that because I trust Tony's. Skills and because jono isn't doing house calls yet
    1985 MB 500SEL EURO NAUTIC BLUE
    1985 MB 500SEC EURO NAUTIC BLUE
    1989 PORSCHE 911 CARRERRA ANNIVERSARY EDT
    2012 MB E63 AMG
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  53. #159
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    I've made some house calls, not w/ regularity but once in a while! Jobs like this it's a bit tricky, but hey...stranger things have happened....
    Blue Ridge Mercedes Jonathan Hodgman
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    08 E63 05 E55 Estate 95 S600 94 SL700 93 500E Brumos/RTech 92 500E T/R 93 500E (122)
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  54. #160
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    Re: M117 help needed (lound knocking noise) Long post!

    dear friends...

    so surgery commenced today...finally

    so my bad cam right side apparently wasnt an original....there is no mb marking on it.....i read and re read through all of my 30+ thousand dollars of records and no where is there any reports of camshaft swap.....

    oh and i apparently bought the wrong length timing chain....need to sort that out tomorrow.
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