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Thread: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

  1. #421
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by nocfn View Post
    I remember asking about changing them!!
    i blame you for asking

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  3. #422
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    they are original... didn't touch them. I they must have gotten jealous

    should i take the whole upper timing chain cover off to replace? I thought I remembered people indicating that replacement in-situ was really difficult to do correctly.
    Given the hassle of taking off the front head cover... I'd attempt to replace it-situ first. Get a couple pairs of seals (they're cheap) in case you bugger one up. You will need to fabricate something to pull the new seal into place, I'd try using the center bolt for the rotor to pull a sleeve that matches the OD of the seal.

    It's easier with them loose on the workbench, but that means removing the valve covers again, and a lot of other stuff.

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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    A 2.5” wood screw on each side, a few threads in and pull out.
    1994 E500
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    1991 560 SEC
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    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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  6. #424
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Thanks guys. I’ll attempt in place. Worth a shot first as you stated dave!


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    After discovering the leaking cam seal, i spent the rest of the afternoon on the other end of the car. I had bought new trunk bump stops and trim to replace the crumbling original items. I also took the opportunity to take all the rear trim off and clean out the gutters. They were looking pretty gross the last time I washed the car.

    Old trim passenger side:



    Drivers:


    Gunk under everything



















    Cleaned it all up and found this manufacturing sticker



    May 5, 1994. Which is interesting as the door jamb sticker has an April 94 date.

    Glad I pulled all the seals off. Found some rust starting. This has been a CA car its whole life.







    Coated all the seals with aerospace 303 and popped it back together.

    New stops and trims:







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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Also checked for codes yesterday afternoon. Nothing additional has yet to pop up!


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    very good, no codes and oil leaks - sound German.
    1994 E500
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    I think my viscous fan is going out.

    Even after the cooling system rebuild the temp creeps up towards 100 with the AC on, which I irrationally just don’t like.

    I did the ROAR test today when I got home, and interestingly enough, the fan seemed to hook up the first two times I revved the engine. The third and following times it did not. Intermittent failure?

    (Dreading the OE cost )


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Jon, keep in mind the clutch is an analog device... what you describe is not a failure, but rather drifting out of spec (assuming it was calibrated properly in the first place). There are a couple of very, very long threads discussing this ad nauseam. Bottom line is, a new OE clutch may be the same, or better, or even worse. Do you have the tools to remove the clutch with the radiator in place? If so, you can do some experimenting, if so inclined.

    But first, let's back up... with the AC running and temps at ~95C, are the twin electric fans running on low speed? If not, that needs to be addressed first (and is likely a much easier fix).


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Jon, keep in mind the clutch is an analog device... what you describe is not a failure, but rather drifting out of spec (assuming it was calibrated properly in the first place). There are a couple of very, very long threads discussing this ad nauseam. Bottom line is, a new OE clutch may be the same, or better, or even worse. Do you have the tools to remove the clutch with the radiator in place? If so, you can do some experimenting, if so inclined.

    But first, let's back up... with the AC running and temps at ~95C, are the twin electric fans running on low speed? If not, that needs to be addressed first (and is likely a much easier fix).
    Ooh. Interesting. I had the AC off by the time I got home and did the roar test. I will have to check again next time I take it out. I do remember the fans kicking on HIGH last summer when the gauge would creep past 107C. (Old stuck thermostat etc)

    Interesting comments about the viscous operation. I did run across at least one of the clutch threads but must have missed the part about engaging and disengaging when cycling through an rpm range. I’ll have to think about that a bit as I’m not fully following. I know it will disengage above 4kish, but I certainly didn’t rev it up that high while cycling up and down during the test. Hence why I assumed that it would just stay engaged locked in at engine speed the whole time.




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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    Interesting comments about the viscous operation. I did run across at least one of the clutch threads but must have missed the part about engaging and disengaging when cycling through an rpm range. I’ll have to think about that a bit as I’m not fully following. I know it will disengage above 4kish, but I certainly didn’t rev it up that high while cycling up and down during the test. Hence why I assumed that it would just stay engaged locked in at engine speed the whole time.
    Jon, that is the analog part... the clutches do not have a "digital" operation where they are either fully disengaged, or fully engaged. What you describe is a clutch that is partially engaged, roaring at idle and just above idle, but disengaging and freewheeling well before the 3600rpm cutoff (which is fixed/digital, all OE Sachs/Horton clutches should fully disengage around 3600rpm). I sent you an email with a bit more info.


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Here is GSXR trying to teach me the about the operation of the viscous fan.
    I am the student in black.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdxEAt91D7k


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Seriously, I need to do the roar test to my 92'. . . runs 90 degrees until I stop with the AC on, then the temp. soars to 105.
    Trae
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trae View Post
    Seriously, I need to do the roar test to my 92'. . . runs 90 degrees until I stop with the AC on, then the temp. soars to 105.
    Trae, did you confirm the twin electric fans are spinning away on low speed with the AC on? Either wya, with temp at 105C, definitely check for the ocean roar.


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Multiple updates tonight!

    Replaced the leaking cam seal. And I only destroyed two of them before I got it right.



    Definitely leaking pretty badly, as I had this area cleaned up after I found the issue this weekend.



    Was able to get the seal seated in from the cover face by about 2.25 mm all around.

    I used this Volkswagen cam seal i had lying around from my Passat days. Worked out pretty well!





    The old seal after extraction



    Time will tell if I fixed it correctly, but so far no apparent leaks.

    Next i changed the oil. The old stuff only had about 1500 miles on it, but I wanted it outta there since I had everything opened up. This also gave me the opportunity to drop the oil pan!





    The pump pickup tube was the old short style.

    As a bonus it was cracked and all dangly



    I replaced it and the pickup screen with new.

    Some numb-nuts had used RTV on the pan side of the gasket. It took a dremel wire wheel and about 45 minutes to clean all the junk off. Re-installed with a new gasket and no RTV.

    Final piece. I confirmed the aux fans were non-functional on low speed by jumping the ac pressure switch connections. I could hear the relay click... pulled it and found this!



    Aux fans are once again functional at low speed!!!

    Dave pointed me to a klink post which discussed upping the amperage on that fuse slightly to avoid future blows. I have to do some additional research in that thread before committing to that.


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  28. #436
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    When I changed out the resistor, removed its sarcophagus and rebuilt the wiring harness there, der Klink said to change that fuse as well, and I did. My fans work as intended, the resistor now has heavy duty, heat shrink wiring and the fuse will blow if that resistor or its wiring blow, and not before like it did with the smaller amperage. He also suggested that I cut out a quarter-sized hole in the plastic headlight cap (in addition to the air tube) so more flow on the resistor will keep it from glowing as brightly at temps.
    1994 E500
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    1991 560 SEC
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    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Woot! New floormats via ebay!



    I figured it was time. jonie13’s gonna be needin his all weather ones back anyway!


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  32. #438
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Pulled the passenger side dist cap/insulator and belly pan this morning to check for leaks from the new cam seal and oil pan gasket. I think the cam seal might be seeping sightly, but I can’t tell for sure. There was just a hint of oil ‘mist’ (no drips) back on the air pump and engine mount cooling pipe. But the area behind the insulator looks clean and dry!

    The bolts at the rear of the oil pan were slightly wet, so I re-torqued everything again to spec, as I have read is sometimes required after replacing the gasket.

    All in all pretty happy with these results!

    One thing I am still not totally happy about is the cooling system performance. Its about 80 deg F in Seattle today. We were out driving today WITHOUT AC, and the car seemed content around 90-95-100 on the gauge. When climbing hills it would creep over 100. I never heard the high speed fans kick on, but my impression is that the car should be cooler than this with the AC off, in the ambient temps we’re currently experiencing. The low speed fans are once again functional, but as I understand it, they are only used when the AC is on?

    Thoughts welcome as usual!


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    One thing I am still not totally happy about is the cooling system performance. Its about 80 deg F in Seattle today. We were out driving today WITHOUT AC, and the car seemed content around 90-95-100 on the gauge. When climbing hills it would creep over 100. I never heard the high speed fans kick on, but my impression is that the car should be cooler than this with the AC off, in the ambient temps we’re currently experiencing. The low speed fans are once again functional, but as I understand it, they are only used when the AC is on?
    You are correct about the fans... low speed triggers based on refrigerant pressure, and will cycle on/off only when AC is in use. High speed triggers only based on coolant temp, on at 107C, off around 100C or so.

    Have you done the "roar test" on the viscous fan clutch, when coolant temp is indicating 100C or higher?


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  36. #440
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Dave, I have done the roar test, and I came away with what I thought were inconsistent results.

    Here is what I did:

    1) Parked car with temp at ~90
    2) Popped hood
    3) Revved engine to ~2500/3000 via throttle linkage
    4) Observed ‘roar’
    5) Let engine return to idle for 10 or so seconds
    6) Revved engine to ~2500/3000 via throttle linkage
    7) Fan did not roar

    So the fan hooked up the first time I revved the engine and roared, but not the second time. I think you have previously indicated that this is normal, although perhaps my previous description of the observed behavior was poor. Or, maybe this is really normal behavior for the clutch?


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    ...So the fan hooked up the first time I revved the engine and roared, but not the second time. I think you have previously indicated that this is normal, although perhaps my previous description of the observed behavior was poor. Or, maybe this is really normal behavior for the clutch?
    That sounds like it may be normal. Remember, the clutch engages based on AIR temp... it never knows what the dash gauge reads. In the scenario above, it could be the initial roar (and increased airflow) cooled the radiator enough to temporarily reduce the air temp on the clutch face, resulting in the lack of roar when you checked shortly afterwards. As mentioned previously, it can be partially engaged, where it disengages at 1500-2500rpm (roughly). It will only roar up to the 3500rpm cutoff when "fully" engaged. This is why I generally recommend testing in the hottest conditions reasonably possible, usually 100C+ engine temp, and preferably 90F+ ambient temp, with AC on to add more heat load from the condenser. If a fan never roars even in those conditions, something is probably wrong.

    Anyway - kinda sounds like your fan clutch is probably fine.


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  39. #442
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Thanks dave!

    Do the temps I was observing yesterday during city driving seem normal or high to you?

    Im used to idiot temp gauges that sit at one point at all times unless something is wrong. Its taking me a bit to calibrate my own ‘sensors’


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    In general it sounds normal, to slightly higher than normal, but not anything to worry about.

    Just to clarify, when climbing hills in 80F ambients with AC off, how high did the temp gauge go? Needle width over the 100C line? More? Snap a photo if you're sitting at a stoplight or otherwise parked...


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    In general it sounds normal, to slightly higher than normal, but not anything to worry about.

    Just to clarify, when climbing hills in 80F ambients with AC off, how high did the temp gauge go? Needle width over the 100C line? More? Snap a photo if you're sitting at a stoplight or otherwise parked...

    Will do.

    If i had to guess what the indicated temp was, i would say 102-105...


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  44. #445
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    I’ve lived in Seattle for nearly 20 years, but have never made it up to the North Cascades Highway. That changed today. Üter was a champ the whole way!



    Unbelievably beautiful.










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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Wow, you picked a great day for the drive!

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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    I installed a WOT LH module that I had pink n pulled a while back. Look at what it does on a cold start...

    This is only on the first cold start of the day. If its warm, even slightly, it wont do it. Signs of a flaky module?

    https://youtu.be/vjCHgz-jiYE


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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    At the next cold start, either pull the rear seat bottom out, or put your ear up to the area on the passenger side. If you hear steady clicking, the module needs the capacitors replaced.

    It would be odd if the module wasn't clicking, and caused the RPM fluctuation shown. Although... did you re-set module adaptation, by "clearing" code #1 with a blinker box? I'm assuming you do not have a digital scanner to view adaptation values. Could also be something weird like the existing adaptation being pegged at the limit, and it will take quite a bit of driving for the module to un-learn the old engine, and re-learn the new. Resetting speeds up the process.


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  51. #449
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    At the next cold start, either pull the rear seat bottom out, or put your ear up to the area on the passenger side. If you hear steady clicking, the module needs the capacitors replaced.

    It would be odd if the module wasn't clicking, and caused the RPM fluctuation shown. Although... did you re-set module adaptation, by "clearing" code #1 with a blinker box? I'm assuming you do not have a digital scanner to view adaptation values. Could also be something weird like the existing adaptation being pegged at the limit, and it will take quite a bit of driving for the module to un-learn the old engine, and re-learn the new. Resetting speeds up the process.

    I did not reset adaptation... But I will tonight!

    I’ll also enlist the help of my assistant to listen for the ‘clicking’ on next cold start.

    You make it sound like the capacitors can be replaced? On a scale of one to ten... where does that job rank?




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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    I’ll also enlist the help of my assistant to listen for the ‘clicking’ on next cold start.

    You make it sound like the capacitors can be replaced? On a scale of one to ten... where does that job rank?
    Best case, it's click-free, and just a weird adaptation issue.

    If you have wielded a soldering iron in the past, on circuit board components, you could DIY the capacitor swap. If not... depends if you want to gamble on learning on this module, or pay a local electronic shop to do the work for you. Or buy another module. There are probably a bunch of YouTube videos that show how to de-solder and re-solder a component (i.e., capacitor). It's not terribly difficult, but there is moderate risk of damaging the board/module if you mess up.


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    OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    I reset the all of the codes as well as the adaptation today on the LH module. We’ll see if I still get the zoomie cold starts happening.

    I was going to deep clean the leather today, but got distracted with another project. Decided to take out the drivers side headlamp and inspect the fan resistor as the last step in troubleshooting my current running temp. Many posts talk about the heat load these little guys go through causing corrosion at the contacts, which leads to higher resistances in the circuit, which stresses out the already taxed 15 amp fuse. Given that my fuse was blown, I wanted to make sure there wasn’t anything fishy going on in there.

    The FSM was pretty helpful in getting the headlight out. A few pics along the way.

    Dirty side marker area


    Headlamp out, mystery cable clip found in bottom of headlight surround:


    Theres the little bugger:


    Headlight surround out:


    1st little safety cage removed:


    Removed:


    Contacts didn’t look too bad actually, but you can definitely see the heat cycling.




    Wires didn’t look too bad either:




    I hit them with a little sandpaper and acetone before I put them back regardless.






    While I was dinking around in there, i noticed that the IAT sensor had somehow become trapped under the drivers side distributor trim, and was being held against the serp belt



    I disassembled the connector:


    And tried to get some appropriate heat shrink tubing around the pins. That was not possible. I used the next size up, but had to then cover it with electrical tape to get the loose tubing to stay in place. I then covered the whole thing in high temp electrical tape. Needless to say, it ended up looking like shit.



    I had recently gotten a high temp soldering iron, so I figured that I would take it all apart again, and do it right.










    Kinda sorta proud of those re-solders:


    So much better!


    I need to order a new sensor and a new connector.


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  56. #452
    Senior Member Hakie's Avatar
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    OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    That sensor should be held in place by a special (pricey) clip inside the air duct. The clip is often missing.
    Nice clean headlight-area.

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  58. #453
    E500E Guru a777fan's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakie View Post
    That sensor should be held in place by a special (pricey) clip inside the air duct. The clip is often missing.
    Nice clean headlight-area.
    Now that you mention it, there was a metal clip I found while removing all this, that might be the one you are referring to. Couldn’t find a spot for it when re-assembling. I’ll post a picture tomorrow.

    Thanks for the compliment! This was one of the areas I couldn’t get to easily when I had the top of the engine apart. Now its clean too!


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  60. #454
    E500E Guru nocfn's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    The metal cover on the resistor should be removed - it was placed there to protect it from dripping plastic from the horn over the top of it. Remove the horn or remove the cover or both let that thing get as much air as possible.
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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  62. #455
    postwhore posterchild Klink's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Your horn is just fine. The stupid plastic horn cover is long gone. DO remove that perforated metal cover that currently enshrouds the resistor. THAT cover IS the devil's work.
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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  64. #456
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Your resistor and wires are cleaner than any I've ever seen. The car must have spent a lot of time in a cool climate. The IAT wire repair looks great!

    So, do the fans work on low speed now with a a new fuse in the cube relay? To test w/o running AC, you can short the leads at the red switch at the receiver/drier, with the ignition turned to position 2 (lights on, nobody home).


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  66. #457
    E500E Guru nocfn's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    I found it interesting that it was soooo clean. My wires were strands about 3-4" up the harness so it was all rebuilt but yours did look great.
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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  68. #458
    E500E Guru a777fan's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by nocfn View Post
    The metal cover on the resistor should be removed - it was placed there to protect it from dripping plastic from the horn over the top of it. Remove the horn or remove the cover or both let that thing get as much air as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    Your horn is just fine. The stupid plastic horn cover is long gone. DO remove that perforated metal cover that currently enshrouds the resistor. THAT cover IS the devil's work.

    Thanks guys. Can I remove the ENTIRE cover, IE - both pieces? Or just the perforated piece?

  69. #459
    E500E Guru a777fan's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Your resistor and wires are cleaner than any I've ever seen. The car must have spent a lot of time in a cool climate. The IAT wire repair looks great!

    So, do the fans work on low speed now with a a new fuse in the cube relay? To test w/o running AC, you can short the leads at the red switch at the receiver/drier, with the ignition turned to position 2 (lights on, nobody home).

    Thanks Dave! I'm not sure about the cool climate... It was originally sold at 'Von Hausen Motors' in Sacramento, and the original and longest owner lived in Fairfield. ?!?

    I did confirm that the fans do turn on with the new fuse. I haven't upped to a 20A as advised by Klink, I figured I'd see how long a new stock 15amper lasts me, then make a decision.

  70. #460
    E500E Guru nocfn's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    only keep the resistor, the other isn't needed since as Klink said - the plastic on the horn is gone now. You want massive air flow and nothing preventing the heat from getting out of the resistor.
    1994 E500
    249/275 - 8F19 or 8F32 or 8320

    1991 560 SEC
    199/268
    2014 E350 Cab 799/264

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  72. #461
    E500E Guru a777fan's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by nocfn View Post
    I found it interesting that it was soooo clean. My wires were strands about 3-4" up the harness so it was all rebuilt but yours did look great.
    Indeed, I was surprised as well. In a good way.

  73. #462
    E500E Guru a777fan's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Oh, no zoomie cold start up this morning. Although its not super cold in the mornings right now to begin with. I'll keep monitoring.

  74. #463
    postwhore posterchild Klink's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    I am fine with keeping the small rectangular section cover over the resistor, but that perforated L-shaped cover has got to go.
    Putting the fun in dysfunction...

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  76. #464
    E500E Guru a777fan's Avatar
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by Klink View Post
    I am fine with keeping the small rectangular section cover over the resistor, but that perforated L-shaped cover has got to go.
    I might have missed it in other posts, but what is the function of the resistor?


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  77. #465
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    I might have missed it in other posts, but what is the function of the resistor?
    The resistor makes the twin electric fans run at low speed, by reducing voltage to the fans. In the process, it dissipates heat.


  78. #466
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    Re: OWNER - a777fan (E420)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    The resistor makes the twin electric fans run at low speed, by reducing voltage to the fans. In the process, it dissipates heat.

    Ah! Thanks!

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