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Thread: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

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    1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    This was listed for sale at Legende et Passion auction, May 2016. I assume it sold, but didn't find the VIN on the forum previously... saving info here for posterity.

    VIN = WDB1240361C118912

    Note this VIN does not have code 957 (AMG E60 package) in the datacard so either it's an incorrect VIN, or this car was converted to 6.0L after delivery. Order code 839 indicates Japan delivery so it's a good possibility this was an AMG Japan conversion.


    1994 MERCEDES-BENZ E60 AMG

    ESTIMATE €55,000- €65,000

    The E60 AMG is known as the flagship of one of the best models Mercedes ever developed. In 1990 a collaboration between Mercedes Benz and Porsche began with the creation of the 500E, each 500E was hand-built by Porsche, being transported back and forth between the Mercedes plant and Porsche’s Rossle-Bau plant in Zuffenhausen, Germany during assembly. With its aggressive stance: 1.5 inches wider track, 0.9 inch lower profile, flared wheel arches, side skirts, front air-dam and wide tires, the 500E is easily distinguished from its lesser brethren. Because of its look, limited numbers, hand-built construction, and unique pedigree, the 500E is already considered a “classic”, even within Mercedes-Benz. It took Porsche a full 18 days to complete each model. In1994 a facelifted version was introduced and renamed to’E500’. Towards the end of production of the W124 chassis, AMG, by special request made the E60 AMG. This was a very limited series of E500’s built between1994 and 1995. It is powered by a 2nd generation M119 V8 engine, AMG increased the capacity to 5956cc increasing power to 376bhp and 580Nm. This base engine was also used in the Le Mans edition of the CLK GTR. Sprint time from 0 to 100km/h dropped to 5.2 seconds and top speed limited 30km/h higher. Impressive numbers considering this was the middle of the 1990s.

    Although production numbers vary it is thought there was in the region of 125 E60’s produced. Other changes included the replacement of the original components with AMG parts including suspension, exhaust system, instrument cluster and wheels were changed to 3-piece 17 AMG wheels.

    This 1994 E60 is finished in the most desirable colour combination – a Metallic Black-Blue(199U) exterior and matching Black interior (271A). There is a letter from AMG confirming its authenticity along with a copy of its data build sheet and numerous service records and inspection sheets confirming the mileage. It is highly spec’d with an AMG wood steering wheel and extended wood on the doors. Having covered just over 74k km’s it is in superb condition throughout and represents a unique opportunity to purchase a very desirable example of these increasingly rare early AMG cars. It comes with a UK NOVA / V5C, a fresh MOT and a fresh service / inspection from a Mercedes specialist.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    If I understand things correctly, this vehicle would be able to be imported to USA next year without too much trouble. What budget would one expect to add to the purchase price to make that happen?

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenstevensteven View Post
    If I understand things correctly, this vehicle would be able to be imported to USA next year without too much trouble. What budget would one expect to add to the purchase price to make that happen?
    Based on the VIN, this particular car (which I believe is sold / not available) was built in early 1994, so yes it would be importable to USA as of early 2019 without Federalization hassles.

    Beyond the 25 year limit, you're mostly dealing with ocean transport costs and maybe some import taxes/duties/fees. I only know of one forum member w ho has publicly shared their experience importing a 25+ year old car, start reading post #23 here:
    https://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...l=1#post145235

    As always, there is significant risk involved with buying sight unseen from Far, Far Away. With a purchase of an E60 or Limited that may be pushing six figures, the cost of a plane ticket to test drive in person would be prudent, IMO.

    Probably worth starting a new thread dedicated to discussing the import process to USA, for cars over 25 years old.


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenstevensteven View Post
    If I understand things correctly, this vehicle would be able to be imported to USA next year without too much trouble. What budget would one expect to add to the purchase price to make that happen?
    My prior ‘92 500e was a Euro-spec. It boils down to the importer and how knowledgeable they are in terms of properly legalizing the car. Its an arduous process, I aquired the car after it was legalized and registered in the U.S. by the previous owner. Not quite, but apparently similar to applying for citizenship in the U.S. This country plays no games when it comes to imports. I had a legitimate title and the DMV was baffled by things and made me jump through hoops. Not worth it at the end of the day.

    Trust me, it would be much easier if the vehicle was transported down from Canada.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenstevensteven View Post
    If I understand things correctly, this vehicle would be able to be imported to USA next year without too much trouble. What budget would one expect to add to the purchase price to make that happen?
    Ideally you use a company here who imports cars from Asia/Europe and they handle all the paperwork and logistics. The general consensus on importing cars is ''a few grand.''
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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harv View Post
    Ideally you use a company here who imports cars from Asia/Europe and they handle all the paperwork and logistics. The general consensus on importing cars is ''a few grand.''
    At 25+ years, I believe that is correct.

    Anything under 25 years... hand over a couple suitcases of large, unmarked, non-sequential bills... and pray. (Remeber when Bill Gates tried to import his 959 back in the day? Fun story.)


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    That is one sweet ride. How fun would it be to have/drive a 6L in a W124 body?

    Don't these put out a 100hp more than the e500?

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Stock spec for a 6-liter AMG M119 is 381 HP, as compared to 315-322 for the 5-liter variant.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    Stock spec for a 6-liter AMG M119 is 381 HP, as compared to 315-322 for the 5-liter variant.
    Gerry is correct. There were rumors, however, that the official power spec on the 6L M119 was under-rated due to internal politics, where they didn't want a pedestrian V8 to have equal or higher power rating than the top-of-the-line V12 M120 engine produced at the same time. Might be urban legend, but in general it's thought the 6L's were closer to 400hp. Only a dyno would say for certain.


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    I also believe that AMG made, under special request + $$$$, higher horse-power versions of the 6L M119, though I don't think anything like that was ever on the official price list.

    Agreed that the "official" 381HP number was likely a bit conservative.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryvz View Post
    I also believe that AMG made, under special request + $$$$, higher horse-power versions of the 6L M119, though I don't think anything like that was ever on the official price list.
    I am very, very suspicious the rumored higher-power version (claimed ~395hp, IIRC?) was simply a special LH module with WOT enrichment. But I've never been able to get my hands on a bone-stock AMG 6L LH module (or car) for testing to confirm my theory!!


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    The AMG 45 Book notes two versions -- a M117 version (402hp) and a M119 version (374hp). See attached.

    These are different from the E60, which was M119 only and rated at 381hp. The AMG 500E 6.0 came in both M117 and M119 variants, pre-facelift.

    My mechanic thinks the rest is all ignition timing through the EZL plug, which I think is probably true. I'd love to see a 6-liter on a dyno with race gas and the right EZL.

    Hope this helps.

    maw
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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Are R129 6.0s rare?
    There's one listed on Roy Spencer's site, and the seller's description kinda hit home because I think we've all been there before.

    "I am burned out and lost Interest in Car ,getting the Car to the current condition."
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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Oy, another faux pas in print... AFAIK, neither Mercedes nor AMG anywhere in the world installed an M117 engine into a 124.036 chassis. Never. If someone can prove otherwise, I'd love to see it. Now, there may have been some M117 installations into some other 124 chassis by AMG. Just not the 036.

    Based on the text, I wonder if they may have been referring to the 119.960 (tall-deck CIS-E / KE mechanical injection) 6.0L... but again, AMG never would have put a mechanical-injection engine into a car that came with the bleeding-edge LH-SFI electronics. Now, RENNtech did install a 6L version of the .960 motor into a 300E chassis in 1990, before the 500E was released... apples/oranges.

    Someone shoulda had Jono proofread that thing before it went to press!


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by ace10 View Post
    Are R129 6.0s rare? There's one listed on Roy Spencer's site, and the seller's description kinda hit home because I think we've all been there before.

    "I am burned out and lost Interest in Car ,getting the Car to the current condition."
    Most any M119 in 6L form is rare, regardless of chassis. Got a link to the Spencer 6L?


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Most any M119 in 6L form is rare, regardless of chassis. Got a link to the Spencer 6L?
    Didn't want to further clutter this thread, but I am always hungry to learn.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    Oy, another faux pas in print... AFAIK, neither Mercedes nor AMG anywhere in the world installed an M117 engine into a 124.036 chassis. Never. If someone can prove otherwise, I'd love to see it. Now, there may have been some M117 installations into some other 124 chassis. Just not the 036.

    Based on the text, I wonder if they may have been referring to the 119.960 (tall-deck CIS-E / KE mechanical injection) 6.0L... but again, AMG never would have put a mechanical-injection engine into a car that came with the bleeding-edge LH-SFI electronics. Now, RENNtech did install a 6L version of the .960 motor into a 300E chassis in 1990, before the 500E was released... apples/oranges.

    Someone shoulda had Jono proofread that thing before it went to press!

    Obviously, I found it interesting to see two different engines under the "AMG 500E 6.0" handle for '92-'95, then a separate entry for the "E60 AMG" for '93. However, it appears clear to me that both of these are W124 .036 chassis.

    My guess is, before the M119 6.0 version was ready, AMG was busy retrofitting .036 chassis with the same M117 6.0 they were using in the AMG 560 SEC 6.0 ('86-'91). So I can see some early adopters who wanted to "AMG-ify" their 500E got that setup.

    But what do I know? I wasn't there.

    maw

    PS The Spencer 6.0L is almost worth selling my 500E for. Yet I still need 4 doors and seats.
    Last edited by maw1124; 22 Hours Ago at 05:16 PM. Reason: PS

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    There is no way as Dave said that an M117 would have ever been installed into an .036 chassis.

    The M119 reference was indeed to the CIS-injected .96x version of the M119, bored out to 6L and installed in a pedestrian 124 chassis.

    The E60 version of the M119 from 1993 would be the LH-injected .97x version of the engine.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    It just occurs to me that you guys are probably right, and these pictures I'm looking at are probably non-Porsche (.036) chassis with flared wheel wells with some 6.0L M117 engines.

    Some of the Hammers were 6.0L and came with M117, 385hp. What's interesting is, the AMG 500 E 6.0 is the only one quoted at 402hp. Same bore, same stroke, more output, but it's shown as an M117, higher torque at a higher RPM, and cost more money.

    FWIW, giving life to the urban legend of 400hp our of a 6.0L.

    maw

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    I believe the standard AMG Hammer, twincam head, 6-liter engine, M117 was ~385HP. The early 5-liter twincam head variant was 340HP, and the 5.4-liter variant with the twincam head was 355HP, and the 5.6 twincam was 360HP.

    A stock US-spec 5.6 single-cam M117 was 238HP, and the top-end non-catalyzed Euro 5.6 single cam was 300HP.

    Note that there were also single-cam 6-liter M117 engines, as well as the well-known AMG twincam 6.0s. But there was also a third variant, the M117/9, which was a combination of M117 and M119. I believe these were generally done by AMG Japan. The M117/9 used the single M117-style distributor with CIS injection and M119 valve covers, but not the twin distributor caps/rotors like the 119.96x (CIS) and 119.97x (LH) engines.

    I do believe, again under special request and $$$$, that AMG would tweak a twincam 6.0 to make 400+ HP. Not on the official product list.

    There were also some experimental versions (not ever produced) that used EFI that I believe produced 400+ HP. With the advent of the factory twincam M119 in the 1991 time period, the M117 was pretty much a technical dead-end. Thus, developing these M117s any further past about 1991-1992 was pretty much a moot point, and development efforts moved to modifying the M119.

    Cheers,
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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    The write up makes clear that by the time the 500E was introduced, a 6.0 version was already complete in Affalterbach. Seems to me those were two separate configurations, one M117 (Hammer carryover, made to work) and one M119, with about 17 fewer horses. That would harmonize all everyone has said, including AMG. Now I have no idea what actually got sold. But they are clearly reporting an M117 version in some W124 chassis with flared wells, simultaneously with the 500E. They kept poor records so we won’t know. But that’s what they’re saying.

    They need a museum of their own, is what they need. Then we might actually know for sure.

    maw

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Naamloos.jpg

    1.jpg

    This is what Otfried Schneider wrote on AMG Private Lounge some years ago.

    Otfried is known for his detailed knowledge on both AMG Private Lounge and on AMG Owners Club.
    Last edited by weide1; 8 Hours Ago at 07:54 AM.

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Any chance you could translate that into English?


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Interesting - thank you!


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    That comports with what the "museum" piece book seems to be saying. It's interesting that of all the 6.0L, only the "hybrid" M117 was quoted at 402hp. Now, I don't for one minute doubt that AMG were sandbagging a bit to protect the M120 cars, but of course, their answer to that was the 73 motors.

    maw

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    What the AMG book doesn't mention is that there were 150+ (possibly 200+ including AMG Japan) "normal" conversions with the 6.0L LH, 119.974 engine. If any of the M117-based engines were EVER installed into the 124.036 chassis... it has got to be low single digits. I still think it may be zero, despite what Herr Schneider wrote on the AMG forum. If it was ever done, I'd love to see photos and documentation... and find out how they made the rest of the engine management system play nice with the LH+EZL AWOL.


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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    What the AMG book doesn't mention is that there were 150+ (possibly 200+ including AMG Japan) "normal" conversions with the 6.0L LH, 119.974 engine. If any of the M117-based engines were EVER installed into the 124.036 chassis... it has got to be low single digits. I still think it may be zero, despite what Herr Schneider wrote on the AMG forum. If it was ever done, I'd love to see photos and documentation... and find out how they made the rest of the engine management system play nice with the LH+EZL AWOL.

    Indeed. Me too. But skunkworks are just that. How many, where, and the intricacies of how, the AMG Book isn't interested in. Just heralding what they've done, however and wherever they did it.

    maw

    PS For the money they were charging, my guess is it's the same way Satish made an M120 work in a C126... I think his words were "the wiring harnesses were a beast. I'm never doing that again."
    Last edited by maw1124; 5 Hours Ago at 10:50 AM. Reason: PS

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    Re: 1994 E500 AMG 6.0L, Black/Black, auction (UK)

    Satish originally replaced a CIS-E M117 with a CIS-E M119 (relatively straightforward but difficult enough) and later with an M120 (really difficult).

    I have to agree that there would be zero or just above zero real .036 chassis that would have had any form of M117 in them. It’s a ridiculous proposition given that 119s were readily available even in like displacements, with better torque/power curves to boot.

    Weirder things have been done though. MB created 500 of the 500GE model (G-wager with CIS-E M117) and they never did an M119 in the G, skipping to the M113. This was because the M119 was too large at the heads for the G engine compartment.

    AMG made a handful of M119 equipped G’s in the 1990s on a special/custom basis for customers — I believe around 10-12 of them total.

    So they did do some unnatural things, but in the case of the G it was because there was no M113 yet and the M117 was a dead end motor, and M119 was current & good technology then.

    But like GSXR I’d like to see documentation and photographic evidence of an M117 in a .036 chassis. In following this market for 15+ years, I’ve never seen nor heard of such a beast on either side of the pond.

    Cheers,
    Gerry

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    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-25-2015, 07:20 AM
  3. FS: 1994 E500, Black/Black, 136kmi, salvage auction (North Billerica, MA)
    By gsxr in forum Cars for Sale - 500E / E500 ONLY
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-26-2014, 08:48 PM
  4. FS: 1994 E500 LTD, Black/Black, 38kkm (Japan, Auction)
    By SilverStar in forum Cars for Sale - 500E / E500 ONLY
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-14-2013, 04:38 PM
  5. FS: 1994 E500, Brilliant Silver / Black, 147,719 km (Auction - UK)
    By gerryvz in forum Cars for Sale - 500E / E500 ONLY
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-02-2012, 04:10 PM

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