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Thread: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

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    E500E Guru JC220's Avatar
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    What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Hi all,

    I have another thread idea brewing on this subject. I have just acquired a w220 S500 722.6 transmission which has great condition internals. This is the updated type 722.6 with the better design K2 bearing and sprags etc. I will build the S500 internals (Currently in a lightly damaged casing) into a good spare case with all new seals etc and make sure the clutch packs are within new factory clearances.

    I intend to set this 722.6 aside for now and eventually swap into a w124 with the appropriate aftermarket ECU / shift controller. My main thought is a Turbobandit or similar M104 build coupled with the 722.6.

    Now – my initial question on the 722.6: What is the maximum HP that can be reliably handled with a late build V8 722.6 transmission? I’m talking about 450 – 600HP range say nothing tooooooooo crazy
    Last edited by JC220; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:55 PM.
    1987 w124 200 - 3.6 AMG build | 1990 w124 300E-24 | 1992 w124 500E

    1994 320CE Sportline | 1997 w140 S280 | 2007 w211 E220CDI

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    I know the Kompressor cars are running a good bit of power reliably.

    Yes, I was thinking the same thing on building up a later one with all the improvements-remember you'll need an early case for the Bell housing to meet up with the M119. Assuming we are talking 036s?

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    The actual 722.6 family can handle whatever you can throw at it basically. There is a reason why Mercedes stuck with it for the M275 AMG engines and the SLR instead of the 7-speed 722.9 that was already well into production at the time. From what I understand, the 722.9 couldn't handle the torque like the 722.6 does.

    Now the question is, is a 722.6 in a normal W220 the same as a 722.6 in a M275 car can handle 800 ft-lb torque?
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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Look at the specs for the '06-'09 (at least) 65 series AMG cars, all of which are running .6 transmissions. Figure 604hp/738tq, IIRC. But keep in mind the TCU manages that power during shifts. When people mess with the TCU parameters they "invariably" (IMO) have transmission issues. And by issues I mean new transmissions. AMG says that transmission can handle 1000 Nm, whatever that translates into. It's one of the reasons I got a S55, as I didn't expect to ever have transmission issues. And at 125k miles, nary the hint of trouble, but I change the fluid and filter every 40k. Stout, and the S55 is over 500hp/tq, and like the 65 series cars, weighs quite a bit more than the E5E.

    maw
    Last edited by maw1124; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quote Originally Posted by samiam44 View Post
    remember you'll need an early case for the Bell housing to meet up with the M119. Assuming we are talking 036s?
    There are early vs late cases on the 722.6. The main difference being that there is a shifter interlock cable on earlier 722.6 transmissions for the parking brake. However from my own experimenting although the later 722.6 boxes do not have this interlock cable, the parking pawl is released mechanically / automatically inside the box when the shift lever goes into park. Soooo I think it does not matter about the shifter interlock cable.

    I am talking about a M104 swap – with Turbos. I would not modify my 500E like that and for any project car a M104 is preferable for me as it is direct bolt in the w124 chassis and besides that I already have a good spare 320 M104 motor that could be used.

    Bellhousings – I will require a w140 722.6 M104 one to fit onto my S500 transmission so as it will bolt up.

    These are pictures of my spare 722.6’s.

    20180723_193750.jpg 20180723_194859.jpg 20180723_201852.jpg 20180723_201857.jpg

    20180723_203027.jpg 20180723_204243.jpg 20180723_204256.jpg 20180723_204535.jpg

    20180723_205158.jpg 20180723_210025.jpg 20180723_210847.jpg 20180723_211030.jpg


    Both 722.633 units post 2000 with the updated / stronger internals. This is the same box as was also used in the S55 AMG models. To reference this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
    Well it looks like Ole has stepped it up a bit.

    Just want to say to be careful about the 722.6 name and all the different .6-- variants. You really have to look at what the clutch setups are in the transmission itself. Do not get caught up in what car it came in and what engine it was bolted to other than what bellhousing you need for your engine. Also do not think that the double sided clutches are of any benefit. All of my builds have single sided clutches in them and have been behind over 1000whp cars that weight North of 4000lbs. I have done both ways and see no real benefit to the double sided clutches other than a small amount of adjustability in the clearances. People think that they can just stick in the thinnest steel plates and add more clutches and what I have found is that all you end up with is something that can not get rid of the heat and has stacking issues. I could go on.

    And again for the love of god do not go get an early transmission for a m119 other than for the bellhousing and torque converter. They really are a piece.

    If I take one out of a customer car at my shop and take it apart to do repairs or a rebuild they get thrown away and replaced. I will not rebuild one and the older valve bodies are prone to problems as well. Core transmissions are just to cheap to get that have all the updates.

    The gearboxes I have (722.633) I do think are great candidates for a strong 722.6 rebuild. Only once Maw mentioned the S55 did I find out it takes the same 722.633 variant. That is good news that it can handle 500hp stock.

    Regarding the 2x boxes I just got - the more complete of the 2x had an argument with a kerb. Indeed the car was smashed pretty good at one corner – tore the wheel and suspension off on one front corner. The good news is the internals of the damaged pan w220 S500 gearbox are very nice indeed. The valve body narrowly escaped damage – only cosmetic scrapes to one corner and a bent corner on one of the small flat steel plates but it is still perfectly serviceable and will be used again. (The small steel plate will be replaced with new)

    Most, if not all clutch packs look to be within factory gap spec still. The frictions that I looked at were also double sided. Everything is very clean inside. Conductor plate has no cracked speed sensors, it has the later sprags and K2 bearing too. My plan is to swap out this one’s damaged casing for the other one and fit all new seals, sonnax bushings etc. Need to also find a suitable 722.6 bellhousing for m104 fitment which might mean buying yet another 722.6 box just for the bellhousing.

    The second incomplete one is from a S430 2003 year. The VB etc will be kept as spare from it too but the main thing I want from it is the good casing. It also was fairly decent inside – not just as nice as the S500 box though which is why I will transfer all of it’s internals into the second undamaged casing.

    The S500 box also came with a great condition torque converter. It sure would be nice if it would be a direct bolt on to a M104 flywheel? I’m guessing it wont be though but I will check.
    1987 w124 200 - 3.6 AMG build | 1990 w124 300E-24 | 1992 w124 500E

    1994 320CE Sportline | 1997 w140 S280 | 2007 w211 E220CDI

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    My CL65 has 604hp so it could do at least that

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    It appears the 722.6 CAN handle quite big HP! I'm surprised at the stock MB HP numbers- this is great news.

    Again I'm talking moderate numbers of max 600HP so I think I should be good if I rebuild a 722.633 to factory spec with a suitable m104 bellhousing.
    1987 w124 200 - 3.6 AMG build | 1990 w124 300E-24 | 1992 w124 500E

    1994 320CE Sportline | 1997 w140 S280 | 2007 w211 E220CDI

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Keep in mind that transmission ratings are in torque, not horsepower. So, the bigger question is, what is the peak torque you expect from your turbo M104?

    The MB transmission numbers have the torque rating as the last 3 digits, for example "722.625 W5A 580" is rated 580Nm, or ~425 lb-ft. From a quick look at the EPC, it appears the highest rated 722.6 may be 900Nm (660 lb-ft) on the 722.648 and 722.649, used with the M275 twin-turbo V12 (CL65 AMG, etc). And as noted previously, MB often used electronic trickery to avoid sending peak torque to the transmission, to make the trans live a long happy life.

    I don't think any of this will be a problem, unless you go completely insane with boost levels, at which point the transmission will no longer be the weak point of the driveline... you'll start breaking parts further back.

    Dave M.
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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    From a quick look at the EPC, it appears the highest rated 722.6 may be 900Nm (660 lb-ft) on the 722.648 and 722.649, used with the M275 twin-turbo V12 (CL65 AMG, etc). And as noted previously, MB often used electronic trickery to avoid sending peak torque to the transmission, to make the trans live a long happy life.
    Good to know. I remember reading back when the M275 AMG was first testing, it was making so much power that it was melting components on the transmission they were testing it on. That led them to turn down the power (I assume the boost levels) to keep temperatures under control.
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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Indeed... because they always market the engines making 1000 Nm of tq. So unless something else is going on, per GSXRs numbers above, all 1000 Nm must not be going to the transmission. The 65 series cars are marketed at 738 lb ft, which is more than the 660 lb ft from the 722.649 box. Hopefully Klink or Jono can elaborate.

    maw

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    WhippleM104 is the person to get the info on this from on the 722.6. He sells the Powertrain Control Solutions TCU. A lot of his customers are running blown Hemi V8s with this trans and have no issue.
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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quote Originally Posted by maw1124 View Post
    Indeed... because they always market the engines making 1000 Nm of tq. So unless something else is going on, per GSXRs numbers above, all 1000 Nm must not be going to the transmission. The 65 series cars are marketed at 738 lb ft, which is more than the 660 lb ft from the 722.649 box. Hopefully Klink or Jono can elaborate.
    It's possible the actual rating of the trans behind that engine is 1000Nm (which is almost exactly 738 lb-ft). The 900 number was shown in the EPC, and may not be as accurate as we'd like. If there is an "Introduction to Service Manual" for the transmission, or chassis, that may elaborate on the specs. Sadly, most of those Intro manuals vanished in the early 00's.


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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    It's possible the actual rating of the trans behind that engine is 1000Nm (which is almost exactly 738 lb-ft). The 900 number was shown in the EPC, and may not be as accurate as we'd like....
    Yeah, that’s my assumption. I’m sure they’re not mating the engine to a transmission that can’t handle it, not for a brand that markets stuff that doesn’t break.

    maw

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Thanks Dave and yes that’s a good point on Torque ratings. Do I know what Torque my potential M104 Turbo could have? No clue! Turbobandit do a up to 600HP M104 complete Kit. So that is what I would intend to buy. But I may choose to have it tuned at more like 450 – 500HP so as not to to keep it reliable to some degree. But as for Torque rating that will have to be figured out on a Dyno or advice taken from similar builds in the past as a ballpark.

    To be honest I do not know which car of mine I might want to convert just now. Perhaps my 320CE but that car and my 3.6 converted w124 still require bodywork finishing in order to have them road legal again. So that takes priority before delving into a 722.6 swap and aftermarket Engine ECU + Turbo. For now I simply want to build and set aside a good 722.6 + m104 bellhousing and have it ready for when other projects can be finished properly first then this can become a reality. I do think the late V8 722.6 I have should be ideal for what I am planning.

    I must mention that I have rebuilt a w140 722.6 myself with all latest parts recently and it was successful. MAVA on BW has been a great help on that and the 722.6 threads he provides input on. Maybe when the time comes for my conversion he won’t mind chiming in too.

    He sent me some good links to read through

    Controller:

    http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...722-6-tcu.html

    W124 722.6 build, and using Whipplem controller:

    http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...2-6-build.html

    Just above there is more discussion on building the “best” 722.6 for high power but per WhippleM104’s experience and advice he says that most V8 722.6’s are just fine without modifications.

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quick question, assuming I could get my hands on a good used M119 722.6 bellhousing what might be a good price range? (Hoard item!)
    1987 w124 200 - 3.6 AMG build | 1990 w124 300E-24 | 1992 w124 500E

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    FYI, if anyone needs a 722.6 - I have one from a 1999 SL500 sitting in my shop and one from a TT S600 that's still in the car.

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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quote Originally Posted by JC220 View Post
    Quick question, assuming I could get my hands on a good used M119 722.6 bellhousing what might be a good price range? (Hoard item!)
    They are hard to find. I was looking for one to chop up, to use as a flywheel lock support with the trans out, and at the time (last spring?) I was unable to locate one. It's NLA from MB.


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    Re: What HP can a 722.6 reliably take?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    They are hard to find. I was looking for one to chop up, to use as a flywheel lock support with the trans out, and at the time (last spring?) I was unable to locate one. It's NLA from MB.
    Hhhmmm NLA eh! That changes things little. Thanks Dave I will try to locate a 722.6 M119 bellhousing. I do not want the whole w140 S500 trans as it will be the early/ weak internals and less reliable valve body.
    1987 w124 200 - 3.6 AMG build | 1990 w124 300E-24 | 1992 w124 500E

    1994 320CE Sportline | 1997 w140 S280 | 2007 w211 E220CDI

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