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Thread: SOLD: 1994 E500, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

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    SOLD: 1994 E500, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    EDIT: This car was originally listed as an E60 due to badgineering. At some point after the original listing, the description was updated to state the engine is standard 5L, not 6L.

    VIN = WDB1240361C146785

    Datacard showing Japan delivery and no code 957: https://www.datamb.com/vin/JBZY8E09oDD2X1bKm

    No info in listing.

    https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/p...e60-amg/733333

    UPDATE: Sold for €57,500 including fees.
    Dave M.
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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Great looking car. Wheels look great also. I wonder why Sotheby's doesn't put more info up (miles/km, history, what AMG treatment was done e.g. engine, transmission, suspension etc.). It's curious that the engine cover is not an AMG version, and it looks like speedometer was not converted to "AMG labeled" one. Regardless, it looks like a great car. I'll be interested to see what this goes for.

    Any potential changes I do to mine will be bolt-on only (wheels etc.). One of the things I had been thinking of doing was the "6-ribbed/Avant garde" grille like in this picture and like I have seen on other cars on this forum. The challenge is any of the ones I see for sale are cheap chinese knock-offs. I looked at the many posts on this forum regarding this issue (avant grade grill). I can't seem to find a good source of a high quality one.
    - Does anyone now a source of a good quality one?
    - What was the original material of the OEM 6-ribbed grille insert (that I believe came on other MB models), was it plastic like some of the cheap ones or was is some kind of metal that was chromed?
    - I understand that if you want to do the swap, you only need to do the insert, not the whole grill, is that accurate?
    Last edited by msq; 12-05-2018 at 07:07 PM. Reason: typo

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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    I hope the car actually has a 6L engine, and not just an E60 badge on the boot. Need some photos of the 6L engine decals on the radiator support, since there's none on the valve covers either. The car has an aftermarket big brake upgrade kit and what appear to be 18" Neez wheels, which are a nice bonus (assuming the brakes work properly).

    There's an old thread about the grille upgrade, you can get OE MB parts from the W140 S600, but last I recall it was crazy expensive - like, hundreds of dollars. Something about the insert being NLA and having to buy the complete assembly maybe? Anyway, yes it's still plastic, but high quality plastic with stainless steel shiny strips. The cheap aftermarket ones have faux-chrome stickers, and actually look decent considering the low cost. The grille thread should have all the info you need.

    EDIT - found the grille thread: https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5204


    UPDATE: Auction description states 5.0L engine, not 6.0L. That was not in the original text. The was originally advertised as an E60 and later corrected to an E500; as seen in the URL of the auction.

    This example is one of only 1,735 built for the 1994 model year, the penultimate year of production. Imported to Switzerland from Japan just over two years ago, this E500 is menacing in black over black leather. It appears as if a previous owner installed some tasteful updates to make it look like an E60 AMG, including fitting E60 badging to the boot lid, six-spoke AMG wheels and a dual exhaust at the rear. Japanese stickers found in the engine bay confirm its 5.0-litre engine capacity. Optional extras include air conditioning, a sunroof and heated front seats.

    Well regarded for their stately looks, bulletproof reliability and impressive performance, this is an excellent modern classic for any enthusiast looking to purchase their first collectable car.


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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    The car was initially sold by Auto Leiter to the current owner.
    W123, W124, R129, W163, W201, R230

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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    I hope the car actually has a 6L engine, and not just an E60 badge on the boot. Need some photos of the 6L engine decals on the radiator support, since there's none on the valve covers either. The car has an aftermarket big brake upgrade kit and what appear to be 18" Neez wheels, which are a nice bonus (assuming the brakes work properly).

    There's an old thread about the grille upgrade, you can get OE MB parts from the W140 S600, but last I recall it was crazy expensive - like, hundreds of dollars. Something about the insert being NLA and having to buy the complete assembly maybe? Anyway, yes it's still plastic, but high quality plastic with stainless steel shiny strips. The cheap aftermarket ones have faux-chrome stickers, and actually look decent considering the low cost. The grille thread should have all the info you need.

    I like to look for the decals as well, but those can be sourced via EBay.de or Yahoo Japan Classifieds, so it definitely should not be the only deciding factor in making a decision to purchase this car. I would rather go after the AMG 6.0l stamp on the engine block, thats not a easy item to forge where as adding 6.0l AMG engine decals would not be too difficult.

    http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionI...448#enlargeimg
    http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=f207124623
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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    It should be interesting to see what it fetches at the auction, this is a high-end venue with 7-digit sale prices seen regularly.

    Any documentation present? service or ownership history? conversion invoices?

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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    It's a AMG converted car. Documentation available.
    W123, W124, R129, W163, W201, R230

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    Re: FS: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by 195910 View Post
    It should be interesting to see what it fetches at the auction, this is a high-end venue with 7-digit sale prices seen regularly.

    Any documentation present? service or ownership history? conversion invoices?
    None listed with auction listing, no info at all, just the pictures. Guess you need to be at the auction to get more info.
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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/p...z-e-500/733333

    Gentlemen, its an "E60 AMG Look alike"

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Not sure if this the right thread to ask this question?

    As I understand it, there are three types of E60s. First, "factory supplied" from new; second, those cars which were purchased as E500s then converted at a later date by an AMG agent; and third, fakes.

    In so far as the so-called "factory supplied" cars, am I correct in thinking that MB did not produce any actual E60s in their own factory - but that they were built as E500s and then immediately transferred to AMG for conversion before selling to the first owner?

    Thanks for answers in advance!

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by r44raven View Post
    In so far as the so-called "factory supplied" cars, am I correct in thinking that MB did not produce any actual E60s in their own factory - but that they were built as E500s and then immediately transferred to AMG for conversion before selling to the first owner?

    Thanks for answers in advance!
    Correct. For the W124, MB never assembled AMG-badged cars in their own factories.

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Good Question mate. I too am trying to find a definite answer, Where factory E60 completely build and then sent to affalterbach? or were the AMG engines sent to Porsche for installation? Or was it similar to the W210 E50 AMG where partially assembled cars were sent to affalterbach to assemble the AMG parts



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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by r44raven View Post
    Not sure if this the right thread to ask this question?

    As I understand it, there are three types of E60s. First, "factory supplied" from new; second, those cars which were purchased as E500s then converted at a later date by an AMG agent; and third, fakes.

    In so far as the so-called "factory supplied" cars, am I correct in thinking that MB did not produce any actual E60s in their own factory - but that they were built as E500s and then immediately transferred to AMG for conversion before selling to the first owner?

    Thanks for answers in advance!
    I did a bunch of homework on this stuff before I bought my car, here is what I learned:

    - For the E60 AMG MB never built E60 in their own factories from scratch (as gerryvz said)
    - There were 3 types of conversions that I know of (depending on how you count it):
    a. a customer could buy an E500E on his/her own, take delivery (even drive it and put miles/km's on it) and send it to AMG for conversion. True aftermarket conversion
    b. a customer could order and E60 AMG new and MB & AMG would deliver you a new E60 AMG. This happened at least three ways that I know of:
    1. A brand new fully assembled E500E that was never driven was sent to AMG for a "build/conversion" (this may not have 957 code)
    2. A partially assembled E500E body was sent to AMG and the "build/conversion" was completed at AMG Germany (I believe many/most or all of the 957's that are German ones fall into this category)
    3. I am not sure how the "new" (vs. aftermarket) E60 AMG Japan cars were done i.e. did they take fully built E500E (like in example b.1. above) or did they start with partially assembled car (like in b.2 above)

    I don't count fakes (i.e. cars just badged with E60 AMG) in any category.

    In categories b.1 and b.2 above it would have "full" conversion to be true AMG i.e. engine, suspension, transmission etc. Aftermarket ones are a hard category to classify because back in the late 80's and first half of the '90's you could basically order anything from AMG in terms of what you asked them to do, so there is not a lot of uniformity. Having said that, if someone sent an E500E car to AMG Germany after they had taken delivery/driven it and had "full conversion" done (i.e. engine, suspension, transmission etc.) it can be pretty much mechanically equivalent to "new build/conversion" cars.


    p.s. a simple way to get assurance of "new E60 AMG" is to get documented proof from MB/AMG that they built/converted the car new. I have this for the car I bought. Some other E60 AMG's that were for sale that I looked at, that were very nice cars, did not have this available from AMG/MB. This does not mean it's not a full E60 AMG conversion, it means it was not ordered new this way and MB/AMG does not have record of it as such.
    Last edited by msq; 2 Days Ago at 10:38 AM. Reason: typos

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Yes both factory ordered and documented AMG conversion would be technically identical, some cars might also have the 957 code entered after conversion. Its just to differentiate between the factory ordered cars and retrofit examples in terms of numbers and classification. As well as how these cars came to be (fully assembled or partially assembled or engines sent to zuffenhausen)

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by 195910 View Post
    https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/p...z-e-500/733333

    Gentlemen, its an "E60 AMG Look alike"
    Thread title updated, post #3 updated as well.

    The car was originally advertised as an E60, with *zero* description, and later changed to E500 with clarification that the engine was 5.0L displacement.


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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E60 AMG Japan Conversion, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by 195910 View Post
    Yes both factory ordered and documented AMG conversion would be technically identical, some cars might also have the 957 code entered after conversion. Its just to differentiate between the factory ordered cars and retrofit examples in terms of numbers and classification. As well as how these cars came to be (fully assembled or partially assembled or engines sent to zuffenhausen)
    Really good points....through all the homework I did on this I discovered the same thing....it's interesting most people don't know this and get religious about this and don't understand the implication. I did not know when I started my search. I eventually settled on "if MB/AMG provides you written validation that they converted/built the car as new" then it was a full/true new conversion and done as new (fully assembled or partially assembled) car. For me if I could not have the documentation from MB/AMG I was not going to pay as much of a premium. Having said that, an aftermarket "full conversion" was technically identical, I was just not willing to pay quite as much of a premium for those, but I would have gladly bought one for the right price.
    Last edited by msq; 2 Days Ago at 11:30 AM. Reason: typos

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E500, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    It actually makes me sad & frustrated to see reputable sellers put up fake, badged E60s for sale as true E60 AMGs.

    I guess the E60 AMG engine, suspension and wheels get the highest attention from people, but a conversion of already driven cars - i.e. registered 500E/E500 touching pavement before taking conversion - can be anything from partial to complete conversions. I think I've posted this before, but my converted 6.0 AMG is a good example on a partial conversion:

    - engine stamped with the specific AMG engine #
    - transmission documented by AMG incl. aluminium sticker #
    - LH unit stock 500E upgraded during supercharging
    - EZL stock 500E, replaced the E60??
    - current exhaust muffler is MAE, replaced the E60??
    - front brake IS upgraded
    - master cylinder & brake booster, I'm not sure
    - rear brakes NOT upgraded
    - front swaybar NOT upgraded
    - current front shocks are KONI, replaced the E60s??
    - rear shocks, I'm not sure
    - current springs are H&R, replaced the E60s??
    - current wheels are MAE, replaced any 3pc. AMG Aero's??

    My car is a '92 so next comes the facelift upgrades since the E60 AMG is a facelift model:

    - bonnet, grill & trunk lid is still pre-facelift
    - manual belt tensioner NOT upgraded
    - current steering wheel is Victor
    - manual rear view mirror NOT upgraded to auto dim.
    - manual drivers side mirror NOT upgraded to electric
    - rear mid armrest NOT upgraded to the later w/o strap
    - alarm and IR-locking (EURO model) NOT upgraded
    - el.steering column was optional? but IS upgraded
    - rear sun blind was optional? but IS installed
    - memory seats was optional, NOT upgraded
    - all radio stuff, fader etc.. replaced with aftermarket

    Something missing?..maybe the ABS pump, water pump and thermostat should be on the list. Dave, chime in please.
    However, this is the main items which has to be sorted during an E60 AMG conversion. The supercharging on my car has probably required some parts exchange, but nothing of the stock, probably E60 parts followed the car. So besides from the AMG engine & transmission it's pretty far from a complete E60 AMG conversion.
    Last edited by 500AMM; 1 Day Ago at 06:25 AM.
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    '94 E500 Limited, Sapphire black, 288 grey
    '92 500 TE, Silver/black (sold)

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E500, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Arnt,

    I’ve never read or seen any info on your Super Mercedes but am curious to know.
    What is the advertised HP/TQ output on your AMG/Konig SC?
    Terry

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    Re: SOLD: 1994 E500, Pearl Black/Black, Sotheby's (Paris)

    Quote Originally Posted by 500AMM View Post
    .....
    However, this is the main items which has to be sorted during an E60 AMG conversion. The supercharging on my car has probably required some parts exchange, but nothing of the stock, probably E60 parts followed the car.
    Your car sounds great, I bet it also outperforms any "stock E60 AMG" with the supercharger you have and any other stuff you may have done. Do you have pictures or owners thread? Black/Black with 6.0L and supercharger and upgraded suspension and facelift sound pretty good to me!
    If you add nitrous oxide you will never have to take another plane flight, you can just fly across the ocean.
    Black/Black with MAE wheels must look great.
    Last edited by msq; 1 Day Ago at 09:28 AM.

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