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Thread: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

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    Senior Member DW SD's Avatar
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    rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Some of you know I had a slight oil leak from the rear of the engine. I pulled the transmission yesterday morning (not a nightmare as I thought it might be). About 3 hours.

    Anyhow, Yesterday, I removed the rear engine case to clean up the sealing surfaces in preparation of reinstalling. After cleaning the surfaces with my angle grinder and rubber gasket surface cleaner (think of bunch of little green rubber erasers spinning on the end of a small angled-die grinder - it is very gentle. (will post a picture) AND using a razor blade in the spots I could not reach with the die grinder, I prepped the surfaces. From there, I used acetone to clean all of the surfaces. This took a long time, maybe an 90 minutes.

    I was then at a crossroads - I wanted to install and keep moving. I emailed Dave M. for advice. He hasn't done this job yet, UH OH. So... I called Jono.

    Jono's advice was to:
    1. He said to use the black Mercedes sealant or "The Right Stuff", which he said is the same. I had bought the black Mercedes sealant a month or so ago anticipating this job. 003.989.98.20.10.

    1B. take your time. he said it won't skin over quickly.

    2. apply a thin coat of sealant to both parts and be prepared for a fight getting the cover in place as the tolerances are very small without sealant. I did that. WOW - my hand was shaking from pushing the piston in the sealant tube after a while. Anyways, I laid down a bead about 1/16th" on both sealing surfaces, surrounding all of the bolt holes, etc.

    3. Jono suggested to apply a little more in the corners where the block, engine cover and oil pan all meet. I was anticipating this ..... cool, I think I'm on the right track

    4. when it came time to apply the crank lip seal, he said to oil the inside of the seal (against the crank) and carefully install it to the same depth as the old one. He said this would be quite hard to do and the seals often put up a fight. Initially, mine did too. The inner lip was folding under. I took my finger nail and worked around the inner lip outwards, giving it room to clear the crank sealing surface. Once the inner lip had completely cleared the crank all the way around (and was not folded under), I slowly began to tap the seal into place with a rubber mallet. He suggested using a block of wood. I did that as I came close to the end. This allowed me to push in on several inches of the seal at the same time and working around, I made sure it was properly and evenly seated. The finished depth is a hair (enough to catch your finger nail on but not much more) above the surface of the engine cover. To the casual eye, it'd be flush. I almost think this is impossible to screw up, because the seal sets against the housing itself. The old seal was bottomed out.

    Well, wish me luck!!!

    A few other random notes:

    1. torque the bolts in stages. It doesn't take much torque 9Nm. I worked my way around the bolts probably five times gently getting more snug. T
    2. squeeze out was minimal, so that appears promising.
    3. I had a hell of time removing the old seal from the rear cover. I realized whoever installed it used sealant around the perimeter of the lip seal. I had to heat the cover around the seal before it'd come out.
    4. the factory service manual calls for starting the engine before re-installing the transmission. Not sure how I could do this. I need part of a bellhousing to install the starter. Don't suppose that is easy to come by!
    5. I've used a very a very similar sealant to this black sealant when reinstalling my trans oil pan on my landcruiser. It sticks like tar and while messy just plain works. I'm hopeful of similar results! I'm 99% sure Toyota and Mercedes use the same product. Of course, Toyota also labels it as their own.
    6. I bought the repair version of the seal, which offsets the sealing lip in a different location from the original. Not sure if this was necessary (no groove on the crank), but I ordered that one ahead of time. It really shouldn't make any difference.
    7. the rear engine cover overlaps (has a bigger footprint than the sealing surface on the block). Once cleaned up, dry fit the cover and run a permanent marker around to scribe a line on the engine case. You'll then know where to apply the sealant. I did not do this and didn't think of it until after. But, I did apply sealant to both parts, so hopefully, it will still be sufficient.

    Next up, waiting on some seals to seal up the external portions of the transmission. And will change the steering idler while access is free and easy (no exhaust).

    DID I MENTION: WISH ME LUCK!! SURE WOULD HATE TO DO THIS OVER.

    Doug
    Last edited by DW SD; 01-26-2013 at 01:48 AM.

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    Senior Member DW SD's Avatar
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    image.jpgHere was my way of keeping track of long and short bolts
    image.jpg Here is the sealant.

    image.jpgimage.jpgAnd the die grinder with gasket surface prep attachment. This is very mild, so it shouldn't take much material away. Still it is important to keep moving so you don't create a low spot.

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    Senior Member DW SD's Avatar
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Here it is all installed. I started to wipe the squeeze out and decided that was a bad idea. I'd just let it dry. Squeeze out was probably about a 1/16" bead all the way around. Not a ton.
    image.jpg image.jpg


    I found if I hung the exhaust with this tie down strap it was easy to lower and I could rotate the whole thing so I could slip it free of the steering idler upfront. When I did the flex discs a month or so back, I could not come up with a good way to totally remove he exhaust.
    image.jpg

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Great job, Doug!
    Quick question, why do you need to remove the rear cover if the new seal goes in AFTER you attach it to the engine? (I haven't read the manual...)
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Great job, Doug!
    Quick question, why do you need to remove the rear cover if the new seal goes in AFTER you attach it to the engine? (I haven't read the manual...)
    Well, I wasn't 100% sure that my rear case wasn't leaking. I actually believe it was not just the crank lip seal, but both causing my leak.

    Also...given that the seal was glued in, I do not think I would have been able to remove the seal with removing the rear case. Jono said most seals are not glued in.

    If you are thinking of installing the seal into the cover, before the rear cover, it would be impossible to maneuver the crank lip seal while attached to the end cover, given that you'd have the sealant to contend with.

    My original orange sealant, which I removed was solidified. Almost plasticized. I think the black does not harden to plastic-like substance. We shall see.

    Doug

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Gotcha. Thanks.

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    For future rear main seals - I was told by the local MB dealer shop foreman they usually just ordered the seal in the housing for M104/M119 applications because of what Jono mentions about seal depth...I learned that after I bought the seal and installed it, for my M104. I was able to install after the housing was removed on my bench. The M104 housing and seal look very similar to the M119 pictures, maybe the same seal.

    -Mike
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    FYI. The 6-cyl and V8/V12 seals are different diameters. The M116, M117, M119, and M120 share the same rear seal, 100mm diameter.

    What is the part number for the rear cover with seal pre-installed? It doesn't appear in the EPC for the M104 or M119. Or at least it doesn't indicate that the cover comes with the seal installed. For the M119, the rear cover is $420 MSRP, so even if it has the seal, I don't think I'd shell out for it...!!

    Dave M.
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    There you have it, the M104 seal is just a few mm shy of 100mm ID.

    Yup $420 is a bit much, he made it seem like it was a common place thing. When I talked to him, he was surprised I had bought just the seal. He also said the leak was usually the sealant not the lip seal. He could just be remembering 20 years ago when Mercedes actually had good warranty programs and/or customers had deeper pockets. I specifically remember having the conversation though.

    I didn't see it in EPC either (104 or 119), usually it has a * when its included with the part. I will investigate this weekend when I go to buy parts.
    1969 Pontiac LeMans Red/Black 105k
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    The M104 seal is the same on the M102, M103, and OM60x diesels. That seal is 93mm ID, compared to 100mm ID on the V8/V12 motors. The M104 rear cover is much cheaper, so if it includes the cover, I could understand that being a common trick. Doesn't appear to be the case on the V8 though!


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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Am I the only one who is amazed that folks like DW and GSXR do things like "take the trans out" (in ONLY THREE HOURS) or take the engine out of their cars and perform major surgery stuff like that? I have changed an engine and done cylinder heads, but those jobs were on an much "simpler" cars, and done ~30 years ago, and the jobs took entire weekends and the help of friends, etc. While intellectually I think I could do something like pulling the trans on my 500E, I have neither the lift, the trans jack, enough ratchet extensions, or the courage to do something like this. Hats off to you gentlemen.

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Glad to help dude, call any time w/ any questions you might have

    Happy to hear it went Well!! Nice write up I might add!!

    Jono
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    All,
    appreciate the kind words and help. Glen helped me tonight put the trans back in and to button everything up. I think that was about four and change hours of effort. Lots of dependencies, had to take a few things apart and redo.... Could have used a project manager.

    After running the car for half an our things are looking promising!!! No sign of leaks. The trans seals I changed seem to be doing their jobs too.
    Last night and today....I changed the reaction valve seals, overpressure switch and seal, vacuum module, kick down linkage seal, neutral safety switch, selector seal, rear output shaft seal, and the dipstick tube.
    i also did the steering idler and last night the four rear subframe bushes.

    Kind of excited to go down the road!

    BIG THANKS TO GLEN FOR HIS HELP TONIGHT!

    doug

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    Senior Member DW SD's Avatar
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Glen is a really clever guy. He came up with many time saving procedures. Fun for me to work with him!

    doug

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Quote Originally Posted by Allgonquin View Post
    Am I the only one who is amazed that folks like DW and GSXR do things like "take the trans out" (in ONLY THREE HOURS) or take the engine out of their cars and perform major surgery stuff like that?
    No, you're not. Reading that stuff makes me jealous every time. Wish I had the space, tools know-how to do these things.

    Well gone, guys.
    "But if you really must have the Porsche — if you really must have a Porsche sedan — you can buy a 500E and have enough left over for something air-cooled"

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Quote Originally Posted by DW SD View Post
    Glen is a really clever guy. He came up with many time saving procedures. Fun for me to work with him!

    doug
    LOL, thanks Doug. It was fun working with you too. I think what really saved time and more importantly made the job easier is that you had all the right tools available.

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    If I ran a mercedes repair shop, I'd cut a portion from a donor trans bellhousing that holds the starter. I'd then be able to test that the engine doesn't leak in the vehicle without reinstalling the transmission.

    Thankfully, the engine oil leak is resolved.

    Bummed that I didn't get the control cable connected properly. I was misled by the spring tension in the vacuum box. In the end, I will get that resolved, too.

    According to Dave, it can be done with the trans in the car. I saw one of Jono's posts where he said it is best to remove the trans. We shall see.
    Doug

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Just to clarify... I have replaced the control pressure O-ring with the trans in the car, on my old E420. So I know it's possible. However it's a miserable job, and if your transmission insulation is falling apart, you could get debris falling into the hole. Since I did this job over 2 years ago (summer 2010), I can't remember exactly what I did, but I do recall that it was akin to root canal without anaesthetic. If you have a lift and the tools, it will be less frustrating to just pull the transmission again, although that is a bit more work.


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    Senior Member DW SD's Avatar
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    I have a lift and the tools. I'm going to take a close look next time I put it up and will see.
    The good news, with the early shift point, I'm saving some fuel for the moment. And, I can still manually drop down a gear or two if I want to have a Mustang or Camaro for lunch. YEEHAW
    OOOPs, did I really write that?

    Doug

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Doug, just a heads-up... DO NOT apply full throttle (kickdown) without the control pressure cable attached. At least in some 722.3 transmission configurations, this can result in a full throttle upshift that appears to be from 1st gear to 3rd gear, with some nasty slippage. You can shift manually using the gearshift lever, to make around-town driving pleasant... just keep your foot out of the kickdown switch until this is fixed.


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    Re: Microencapsulated Screws and where they are needed

    I am in the process of reinstalling my flywheel after replacing my rear main seal on 1992 500e.

    The 8 flywheel bolts are in excellent shape, and I am considering applying a sealant to the bolts instead of buying 8 new ones for ~$40.

    Does anyone have any experience applying sealant such as loc-tite, MB black for rear main seal cover, or other, on the bolt threads to mimic a "Micro-encapsulated bolt" to stop oil leaks?

    Admin edit: Copied this post and replies below from this other thread.
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    Re: Microencapsulated Screws and where they are needed

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandMon View Post
    I am in the process of reinstalling my flywheel after replacing my rear main seal on 1992 500e.

    The 8 flywheel bolts are in excellent shape, and I am considering applying a sealant to the bolts instead of buying 8 new ones for ~$40.

    Does anyone have any experience applying sealant such as loc-tite, MB black for rear main seal cover, or other, on the bolt threads to mimic a "Micro-encapsulated bolt" to stop oil leaks?
    I asked Klink about this a while ago, and he recommended replacing the bolts if possible. Based on my experience, I would also strongly recommend replacing the bolts with new ones, which have the proper sealant pre-applied.

    If the bolts are re-used, make sure the bolt threads and crank threads are completely clean and dry. I've seen at least one instance where oil sneaked past blue threadlock so I would NOT recommend using that. The MB orange anaerobic worked better, and MB specifies that for bolt threads that go into oil-filled areas of the front timing cover, but I did see where oil got past 1 of the 8 bolts with anaerobic too. Jono or Klink can probably chime in with more details. I would not use any "non-drying" sealants. You can either shell out $40 for new bolts and not worry about leaks, or plan on pulling the transmission out again to replace the bolts later on if they do leak.

    How was the job otherwise? Did you press in the new seal with the the fancy factory tool, or via other means? More info on the rear main seal thread here.

    Dave M.
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    Re: Microencapsulated Screws and where they are needed

    IIRC, I used regular thread-locker in my E320 wagon transmission remove/installation when I removed the flywheel to do the rear main seal. I do think they say to replace the bolts, though there is a stretch tolerance for them?

    Haven't looked at the FSM to see if there is a difference in process/procedure/specs between the M104 and the M119 as employed in the W124, but here is my post where I removed and measured the flywheel bolts for stretch:

    https://www.500eboard.com/forums/show...ll=1#post69347

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    Re: Microencapsulated Screws and where they are needed

    I reused the 2011 bolts one time so far for the newer engine and i used anaerobic sealant for it. Its basically the same base chemical like in threadlocker or liquid hydraulic thread sealants.
    Yes i cleaned the threads very carefully and also the bolts of course. Might be not bad to use a tapping device and just re-tapping the threads to actually clean them.
    Oil-pan has to be empty IIRC.
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    Re: Microencapsulated Screws and where they are needed

    Quote Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
    How was the job otherwise? Did you press in the new seal with the the fancy factory tool, or via other means? More info on the rear main seal thread here.


    Thanks guys. I ended up using Permatex Permashield after researching the board (compare to Hylomar). I cleaned the bolts and holes very tediously with brake cleaner and Q-tips. Torqued everything down and did the 90 degree torque on all.
    I will post photos to an owners thread (which I have not started) to show the extent of what I am doing. I am in the process of replacing transmission with a Sun Valley remanufactured unit and while I was under there I refreshed the driveshaft with new bearing & carrier, flex discs, rear main seal, flywheel position sensor, vacuum lines, shifter linkage bushings, etc.

    To install the seal into the carrier I used a bead of black MB sealant around the outer lip and pressed in with a block of wood and hammer. To install it over the crank I just pushed it on and used my fingernail to get the lip around the crank. It slid right on and the seal looked normal, so I assume that it went on fine. I did notice that after I had the cover on and torqued down, the lower half of the seal was starting to back out of the carrier (probably from less friction due to using the sealant. If left in this condition it would have ended contacting the ring that rotates with the crankshaft, so I put the old seal against the new, and tightened it down against it using the plate and a few crank bolts to put some pressure on it. Left it overnight and the next day it was stuck in the correct position, allowing me to install the flywheel, and prepare to hoist tranny into place.

    For clarity, when researching what to do with the bolts, I learned that many people do use blue loc-tite, some used hylomar, some use permashield, and in the end there were no reports of leaks.
    1992 500E - 215k miles

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    Re: Microencapsulated Screws and where they are needed

    Just make sure the seal is square with the housing. Sound like you have it solved.


    M

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Sorry to revive an old thread but does anyone know what the torque specs r for rear main seal plate?
    Julio

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Quote Originally Posted by Normanbigfish View Post
    Sorry to revive an old thread but does anyone know what the torque specs r for rear main seal plate?
    Julio
    It's in the FSM procedure - don't do this job without it, or you may be re-doing the job! PDF attached & also linked below.

    http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20...19/01-2220.pdf

    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Also, as an adjunct to Dave's note above on the rear main seal plate replacement/installation torque, attached is the FSM procedure for replacing the rear main seal itself. Which is often the reason why the rear main seal plate is removed, in the first place

    Cheers,
    Gerry
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    Got both PDFs. Thank u! Found torque specs. I will follow instructions. Thank you all again . Yes. I didn’t wanna take cover off but it was definitely leaking and looked like someone already tried to seal it up by put silicone on outer part of cover. Wish I would’ve taken a pic to show u what it looked lik. It had to come off. ��
    Julio

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    Re: rear engine cover / rear main seal INSTALLED - THANK YOU JONO

    For a small leak around the edge of the cover, an external bead of silicone may work ok. But the proper fix is to R&R the cover and use fresh OE MB "black" sealant. Make sure the crank seal is perfectly seated, dead even, or it may leak. The OE Bruss seal is a very, very tight fit in the carrier.

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